The Qur’an II

Hi everybody,

Because many of us were just drifting away from the thread of the topics - in "Is Mohammad the last Prophet?" and "Islamic state" -- and touched upon the fundamentals of Islam [ and Christianity ] I think I better start this topic : The Qur'an II. And if you want to wander away and make comparisons to the Bible then it is just OK with me ....

I named this topic The Qur'an II, because in July 2002 I started  in this forum the topic " The Qur'an", which only lasted a month, after 54 postings, because I got confused and needed a break ...  But after a few days of its start 'The Quran" was then joined by the topic "To Thomas" by Nausheen, because she was so very kind and very serious to explain to me the meaning of Islam. So, after lasting also a month, it produced an additional 63 postings.

 A summary of all the relevant substances, hoping to get as close as possible of what have been commented and meant follows in the next posting. It is a gigantic effort to grasp the real meaning of what has been said, so forgive me if it is not actually meant as described. Well, the more reason to correct me ......

I threw in the question on the origins of the Qur'an  as follows:

Hi, I'm a Christian, but have also read the Qur'an,even though only part of it.
        When I read the elucidations on the origin of the Qur'an, they say that the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet by God.
        But when I compare its contents with the Bible, then most of them are the same, the figures, the events, etc.
      But why then have the stories on Moses, Noah, Abraham, David, Jesus etc. been well known to the Meditteranean world already for 600 years already, before the Islam? And, even, the Old Testament stories some hundreds years more?

Or, how should one regard this problem correctly?

Thank you,
Tom.-

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But apart from the substances that were previously discussed, [next posting,] which I hope you give further comments to,  I would like submit the following question as a starter for The Qur'an II :

1.  Is there a story that the Qur'an is telling us ? What is the nucleus that can be described of the Qur'an? Is there a certain "big picture" that we can see? If we see a tree from a distance, then we can recognise a pine tree, a apple tree, etc. with their distinct trunks, branches, leaves etc. Is there a "big picture with a distinct story" visible of the Qur'an ?

I am asking this because in the Bible you can discern the great structure of the Bible tree, there is a clear, visible story:

The Old Testament :  creation of man, stubborness of man, forgetting his Creator, sin and downfall of man, God's eternal love, His promise to save mankind through Jesus Christ through the prophets [prophecies].

New Testament:  Jesus Christ's birth, His salvation through the cross, resurrection, ascension to Heaven, and prophecy of Jesus' second coming and judgement of man by Him.

I have tried to grasp the great outlines of the Qur'an but failed.

Only one statement that was repeatedly made by my Moslem commentators that seems to be relevant : that the Qur'an is a "correction" or  "amendment" to what God has spoken through the Scriptures before.

But, but but, does this mean that the "original" word of God is in the Scriptures/Bible/Torah, and that the Qur'an just rectified its "authentic" sources ? And what exactly has been rectified? And what of the "authentic" substances are not corrected, and are still valid? Jesus Christ's judgement on judgement day?                                   

 Is there anyone who can help me out?

Thanks a lot.

Tom.-

Hi everybody,

Well,  in "To Thomas" I already posed the question whether there is a "big picture" visible of the Qur'an, just as of the Bible, and then got this response from Salmaan, who drifting away, unintentionally made the comments that are responsive. [I paste the entire posting below, the relevant part is in red, final part]

My question is : is the picture that is depicted here more or less the "big picture" of the Qur'an  ? My comments are in blue]

Tom,

>That's still the problem I'm wrestling >with. If God's word will be of equal
>weight to some persons to whom He has >revealed His word, would then His word
>through the Prophet be equal to those >revealed before the Prophet?

The message revealed to the messengers before Muhammad (sas), were specific to their ppl/nation. eg: Message of Moses and Jesus for the children of Israel and the Message of Noah and Lot for their respective ppl. However the Message of Muhammad (sas), the Qur'aan, was for all nations, a universal message for everyone until the day of Judgement.

>>The Qur'aan is based on the >>revealed words of Allah and
>>not on anything else. Unlike >>the bible, it is one book with >>one author, Allah.
>>
>Here again, you have been misled about >the Bible. I mean, it is true that there
>are lots of reporters, but they all >conveyed the Word of God. Only one >source.

Am I mislead? Not according to the revisors of the RSV Bible, who                

say that some of the authors are UNKNOWN? They say that the author of SAMUEL is "UNKNOWN" and that of CHRONICLES is "UNKOWN"!

Now how can u say that one was conveyed the word of God and he is "Unknown". Why is half of the New Testament written by a man who never even met Jesus in his lifetime? PAUL claims to have seen a vision of Jesus to justify that he had met Jesus, while on his way from Jerusalem to Damascus!

>And here again we stumble upon the fact >that several reporters have conveyed the OT
>stories, whereas as you stated above, >there is only one author of the stories
>in the Qur'an which are similar to those >of the OT.

As I've said many times before, we do not say that the whole of OT or NT is corrupted by man. There are still a few passages which have not been altered, since the Torah and Injeel were revealed (from one source, Allah) and ,these were re-confirmed by the final revelation, Al-Qur'aan, from the same one source, Allah.

>>My point was to emphasis that >>Muhammad (sas) was not the
>>author of the Qur'aan (it was >>Allah) and also to clarify
>>that the Qur'aan is not based >>on any previous sources,
>>rather it confirms those >>scripture before its time, >>like the Bible
>>
>
>I'm afraid I have to really to crack my >mind to understand what you mean by it.

>You mean that the authenticity is not >with the Qur'an since it is only a >confirmation?

I didn't say it is 'only a confirmation' but it is the 'criterion' (Al-Furqan, another name of Qur'aan) for mankind to attain salvation.

Let's review what we've discussed so far:

Allah, out of His abundant Love and Mercy for mankind has not left us in darkness to discover the right path by trial and error alone. Coupled with our intellectual capability to reason, our Creator bestowed upon us Divine Guidance that outlines the criterion for truth, knowledge, as well as the reality of our existence in this world and the Hereafter.

From the beginning of mankind, our Creator sent Prophets to convey His revelation and to invite human beings to the path of true peace and obedience to the One True God. This is Islam. This message is conveyed towards successive generations of man through the different prophets, all inviting mankind to the same path. However all the earlier messages or revelations from God were distorted by people of later generations.

As a result of this distortion, pure Revelation from our Creator was adulterated and polluted with myths, superstitions, idol worship and irrational philosophical ideologies. The religion of God in a sense was lost in a plethora of religions. Human history is a testament of man's drift between light and darkness, but God out of His abundant love for mankind has not forsaken us.

When mankind was in the depths of the Dark Ages, our Creator sent His final Messenger, Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu �alaihi wa sallam) to redeem humanity with the final revelation which represents the ultimate and permanent source of guidance for the whole world.

"He (All�h) has ordained for you the same religion (Isl�m) which He ordained for N�h (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad (sas), and that which We ordained for Ibrah�m (Abraham), M�s� (Moses) and `�s� (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion). Intolerable for the Mushrik�n [polytheists, pagans, idolaters, etc.], is that to which you (O Muhammad (sas) call them. All�h chooses for Himself whom He wills, and guides unto Himself who turns to Him in repentance and in obedience." (Qur'an 42:13)


was'salaam
Salmaan

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Thanks,

Tom.-

well as muhammad is a muslim, so does Jesus is a muslim all the way to Adam. the religion is one. so it's no surprise anyway the Quran to reveal the stories of the prophets. plus, the Quran does truthfully states future happening, i.e. the Roman. "Within 3 to 9 years. The decision of the matter, before and after (these events) is only with Allah, (before the defeat of Romans by the Persians, and after, i.e. the defeat of the Persians by the Romans). And on that Day, the believers (i.e. Muslims) will rejoice (at the victory given by All�h to the Romans against the Persians) [30:4]

that's just one example.

Has Jesus as a son of God been corrected? By which verses in the Quran?

just read surah 19 about Maryam (Mary) & Isa (Jesus). Jesus is a human prophet, simply like any other prophets. Allah created him like how Allah created Adam. "It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is" [19:35]

and the Quran reinforces the believe of One & Only God, the same One & Only God believed by Abraham, & rejects polytheism, rejects any son of god. "They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Jesus: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them." [5:72-73]

i learn Prophet Muhammad, on his first revelation, he was so frightened he covered himself with blanket & shivered. thus his wife Khadija refered to a Christian scholar to confirm his stories. plus the Quran even states "So if you (O Muhammad ) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taur�t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it) ." [10:94]

to bring monotheism during a time when ppl are polytheists, he was called crazy etc. people hated him so much they want to kill him. so why is Muhammad doing this? because it's the truth. & when i see the victory as recorded by history, i believe he does bring the truth. & the truth will always prevail no matter what.

if you have read the Quran, you just know it. a lot of times when i read the Quran & i ask questions. Praise to Allah, the Quran answered it in no time! as if it's written to answer my questions. & it does answers all my questions. it happens a lot, & i must say that Quran is indeed a miracle.

Firewall:

From the extensive and intensive explanations I understand that Islam means "a way of life", man's submission to one God, so that anybody who submits himself to the one and only God, regardless of his faith, is a Muslim? Plse correct me if I'm wrong.

Once again: because I submits myself to one God, and I am thus a Muslim, does my Christian faith still adheres to me? Am I subject to my Christian beliefs even I am a Moslem? I think it very unlikely that a Christian can be called a Muslim if he still believes in the Christian faith, except in the sense of "a way of life".

I assume that you mean that Jesus is a Muslim, but without regard  with what he is preaching? That he is just a human being? In other words:in the context of the Islamic view?

It would certainly more complicated, I'm sure, if you listens what Jesus is saying about himself. Not just what you quoted above, not, that 's not enough. But ALL, EVERYTHING that is written in the New Testament. You just cannot ignore what is written beside what you've quoted above, to really understand it.

On your comments that Jesus not being God's Son, and on the Trinity concept:

Why isn't it possible that God would begot a son of a human being, an earthly woman?

Because the Qur'an says so? I personally believe that God is All Powerful, All Knowing and that he, being God, can create whatever event he wishes, any event beyond our capacity to understand, including begetting Jesus through Maryam.

Also: why isn't it possible that God manifests himself in the trinity?

Why can't God with his unlimited powers, express himself in a Trinity, that we human beings cannot understand?

With this statement I must remind you that the Christian concept of Trinity, is not that there are 3 Gods, that is always concluded by other faiths, inclusive Islam [that I think is more caused by incomplete data by those who think that.] No, from the Old Testament on to the end of the New Testament there such a vast amount of material that declares, and by God himself, that there is only one God.

So, to understand that, it would be better to study the Bible thoroughly instead just basing such divine concepts from certain, uncomplete verses of the Bible.

And it would be better that to refrain from speaking for other faiths, let us just speak for our own faiths, in order to have a fruitful discussion.

And, it surely, certainly is blasphemy if one would say that the Christian God consists of 3 persons, 3 Gods, because Christianity itself does not preach 3 gods ...... Just only one.

So, a verse referring that the Christianity believes in 3 gods is totally irrelevant and incompatible, just way out what Christianity preaches !

I think the non-Christians should really listen to what Christianity is saying !

Returning to the thread:  What does the verse you quoted exactly mean about the orah and the Injeel? I really hope your explanation !

"So if you (O Muhammad ) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taur�t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it) ." [10:94]

Thank you.

Tom.-