The Qur’an II

Firewall :  ...to me, yes it's impossible that God manifests himself in trinity. bcoz that manifestation simply weakens God. as muslim, i believe Allah is the All Mighty,The Most Great. the trinity makes that the complete opposite. if jesus is born, thus he was once weak as an infant. why would the All Mighty God manifests Himself as weak? why would the Creator manifests Himself as the created? ...

Impossible for God to manifest himself in another form of existence? Is it because God has not the powers to do so, or because it is unthinkable, unimaginable, absurd, inconceivable to the human mind?

Or, is it only because the Qur'an says so?

I would say, apart what whoever says so, using the logic that is bestowed on the human mind, that it would be quite easy for God to that. Just as you mentioned, on Adam ... He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was." [3:59]

Why wouldn't He beget a son through Mary and why does he manifest himself in 3 forms in the Trinity ?

You can find all the reasons in the Bible, why. That there is a reason.

Personally, and my statement is not based on the Bible, but just based on our modern, far advanced knowledge today, perhaps God thought it the best way of communication to explain his appearance as Jesus Christ as a basis for salvation for the human race. To have the best effects .... It is just a personal inference.

Trinity is not a Biblical term, but is a concept based on the Bible, what is implicit in all what has been written and declared in both testaments. You will find all the verses you need to understand the Trinity term in the Bible.

Having arrived at this, I just want to comment on your response to my statement not to speak for our faiths that ...the verses i shared was simply stated by the Quran ... is quite understandable, but not quite sufficient. I mean that you have to read the Bible yourself, ALL OF IT AND NOT PARTIAL, not only a few verses, to better understand the teachings of the Bible. If you don't read all the interconnecting parts that depicts the whole picture, the complete substance, you get easily misled. Of course you don't speak for our faith, but it seems to me that Islam wants to speak for Christianity?

Isn't it better that we, apart from knowing our respective holy books, but then also listen to what the oher books is saying? That is why I always try to listen to what you, and other Moslem friends, want to say, and the relevant verses in the Qur'an.

And, returning to our thread,  1] I read the verses in the Qur'an that Yesus will judge all men at judgement day. This is a very fundamental prophecy for us, Christians. Has thisbeen rectified or amended by the Qur'an? And how should one understand exactly the reference in the Qur'an?

2] In my topic "islamic State" I posed the question whether the Qur'an strictly forbid a Moslem to change to another faith, and, as I was told by a friend, that this rule is in force in Malaysia? Is this true? And if so, where can I find the verses in the Qur'an?

Thanks,

Tom.-
 

Firewall : once again : first, read the whole, the entire background of Trinity, and then make your opinion. Second, it is unthinkable, yes? Of course it is unthinkable, ununderstandable, beyond our human mind ! That it is why it's divine!

Our human mind is limited to our logic, to what our human can understand. If we can understand something, and accept something with our logic, then it is a human creation. As soon it goes beyod our logic, then we reject it as impossible ... But the perception of a Divine Being, a Super Being, is not limited to our human mind! God has created Adam out of dust, thus say the Qur'an and the Bible. We can understand this only when we ascribe the Super Divine Powers to the Super Being, God. He is quite capable to do non-logic things. The Trinity concept and God as a human being in Yesus, is FAR, VERY FAR BEYOND OUR HUMAN LOGIC AND UNDERSTANDING. But isn't it possible for God?

You know the example of the goldfish in our aquarium? When we, humans, feed them, then it is a miracle how food can just fall in the water like that. This is what the fish will think, if it can think. Usually it has to seek food between the reefs or weed. But it is possible and very real and actual : we human have superior brain than the fish ...

Just read the Bible yourself Firewall. Then you can, I'm sure, better understand our, Islam and Christian God. Perhaps, after reading the contents of the Bible, which are also God's OWN WORDS, you will understand it, but not accept it. Well, that's another matter.

I find the relationship of God's word in the Qur'an and the Bible very, very interesting, and just try to sort it out.

My initial questions are still very relevant I think, in solving this big, gigantic puzzle: on the origins of the Qur'an,its authenticity and what exactly the Qur'an rectifiyng the contents of the Scriptures/Torah+Bible, and what is exactly remaining of the Scriptures after rectification by the Qur'an?

Again : is f.i. what still holds of the Scriptures that Yesus will be the one who will judge man at judgment day?

Thanks,

Tom.-

Sakeranwar:

To have a meaningful and fruitful discussion, I propose that we refrain from attacking each other faiths, because that indicates that we just close ourselves from listening what the other faith has to say. Also, that we refrain from speaking for the other's faith, because usually we use our own faith to judge the other faith.

If we cannot do what I proposed above, then I'm not inclined to continue the discussions, because then we will be talking past each other and not to each other.

For instance : you stated that  "..... according to Islam, all other religions are false and are rejected ....".

Surely, I can understand that Islam says so. But Christianity -- and Yudaism, I presume, I'm not a Jew -

- I'm a Christian -- says that as well.

And, I hope you can accept this: I think both faiths have the full right to claim that.  And, both faiths must have their respective reasons to be able to claim that.

Yes, both faiths say : my faith is the true religion because it is based on the word of God. God himself have conveyed his messages through various channels, and, in both faiths that God's messages were given by him to mankind through his various messengers.

This is why I have started this topic : the Qur'an, and started the question: 

 How is that most of the people, figures, stories in the Qur'an are similar to those in the Bible ? And that those stories are already known in the then Mediteranean world for more than 600 years before Islam was born?

I put up this question already 3 years ago, but from the subsequent discussions, there was no clear answer.

If we can have some picture, some idea, even vaguely,  of what is the relationship, the connection

between the Bible and the Qur'an, then we may have a better understanding of our faiths, and move closer to each other. The gap between both faiths at present can, hopefully, be narrowed, and then bridged one day. 

Thanks.-

Tom.-

Other comments follow.

Es_Selam'un Aleykum Sister Amlalhabibi,

Sister please more concentrate on Qur'an then take the last decision...before being an ancient sycamore it is not good on giving individual fatwas...just keep on walking...leave the rest...after an time you will see the difference...insh'Allah...