The Qur’an II

Amlhabibie :  well, when I read the Qur'an -- in English -- it is truly beautifully phrased, its prose is really a relish for the eyes and mind and heart.

But then about the substance of the Qur'an, as you may have noticed, there seems to be many verses that allow violence, coercion, force, etc.  on non-Moslems, especially in Moslem-states.  And referring to so many examples of terror and violence which various Moslem factions exercise justifying their actions based on Qur'anic verses, the how should a Moslem really understand Islam?

Jihad, attacks and desctruction of churches -- in my country well over 400 churches have been burned and closed during the past ten years.

From various from participants in this Interfaith dialog, I can summarize that there are both hostile and and peace-declaring verses, so WHAT EXACTLY IS TRUE, the hostile or the peace-expounding verses?  No answer on this question yet.

A paper on Islamic views says : that violence and coercion and force is NOT the nature of ISLAM, and that these violence inducing verses are "situational" verses, that only apply to certain situations during the Prophet's time.

So is the conclusion then that the present hostility and terror by the Islamic militant groups towards non-Moslems based on misinterpretation of the Qur'anic verses by those groups?

Dayem :  thanks for your response. I have to repeat inshort what I wanted to say in my afore-postings : I raised the question why God - the one and only - as a, what we believe and are convinced of, Super-Supernatural Being, could not have Superantural Powers to express himself in 3 "existencies", beyond the grasp of our human mind and logic? And just because we have the ability to think, to reason -- only humans can do it, other loving things, definitely cannot -- exatcly because we can do that we know that there is a God and a God with infinitely powers to create and to do anything what He wants, and ; BEYOND THE LIMITS OFTHE HUMAN MIND.

In short : if we cannot grasp something, then it is impossible for God --- like Trinity ..... I don't think so.

Just as you mentioned "...... He has the Power over everything .... " Why can't he take the form of a human? You quoted the verses of the Qur'an -- with many thanks.

The Christians say : He can: Yesus Christ. Is it a human invention? NO, BECAUSE GOD IN THE BIBLE SAYS THAT OF HIMSELF !!

Please, please, please, sister/brother Dayem : I did not claim He is 3, as you stated. No, Christianity believes just in One and Only God, as Islam does. And why do Christians believe in the One and Only God ? BECAUSE GOD HIMSELF SAID SO, IN THE BIBLE.

And your example of frozen water/ice, water-liquid or water vapour is a very, very good example. IT REMAINS H2O and THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE BIBLE TELLS US.

If you are told that Christians believe that God is 3 then you are totally misled.

So now I can confirm, very very firmly, and definitely to you that the Christian God is One, and Only One, like H20 .-

When Christ ate food, so what's wrong with that? On other occasions he walked on water and healed people and raised Lazarus from the dead ....

I hope I have quided you to the right perception of God in Christianity. If I haven't, then I would strongly recommend that you read the Bible -- ALL THE RELEVANT PARTS on God's Oneness, or listen to what a Christian scholar explains to you on that matter. And please LISTEN, LISTEN. If you don't listen and shut yourself up within your own walls of Islam, then it is very difficult to carry out meaningful and fruitful discussions on both our faiths.

Apart from all, I'm  really happy that you made comments.

Tom.-

PS:  What do you think of the fact that most stories and people and events in the Qur'an have already been known in the Mediterranean world for some 600 years? Before the Prophet was born? So they are not original?

Brother Thomas

I think believe your question will be answered if you read the thread, the Renewal of Islam

or you may read articles I have written on this subject at the following url.

http://groups.msn.com/TheRenewalofIslam/_whatsnew.msnw

There are many reasons why I was inspired to write and share the articles I wrote.

It is my hope to encouraging positive change amongst all peoples.

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful. All the praises and thanks be to All�h, the Lord of the 'Alam�n (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

Hi Thomas

To have a meaningful and fruitful discussion, I propose that we refrain from attacking each other faiths, because that indicates that we just close ourselves from listening what the other faith has to say. Also, that we refrain from speaking for the other's faith, because usually we use our own faith to judge the other faith. If we cannot do what I proposed above, then I'm not inclined to continue the discussions, because then we will be talking past each other and not to each other. For instance : you stated that  "..... according to Islam, all other religions are false and are rejected ....". Surely, I can understand that Islam says so. But Christianity -- and Yudaism, I presume, I'm not a Jew - - I'm a Christian -- says that as well.

My earlier post to you no way constitutes an attack on your faith. I simply stated  how Islam views of other religions! It was not an attack. You have asked for  information on Islam and I gave you the information. I have told you before that, according to Islam, mankind has only one Creator and He ordained for the mankind only one religion to follow. This religion is the natural religion of Isl�mic Monotheism (i.e. Allah's Fitra - worship none but All�h Alone). And our Creator has instilled this natural belief into our hearts when He created us. Allah tells us in the Holy Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

And, I hope you can accept this: I think both faiths have the full right to claim that.  And, both faiths must have their respective reasons to be able to claim that. Yes, both faiths say : my faith is the true religion because it is based on the word of God. God himself have conveyed his messages through various channels, and, in both faiths that God's messages were given by him to mankind through his various messengers.

Yes, of course you have the right to claim whatever you want to claim. The import question however is whether your claim is right or wrong. This is what you need to find out first. How can you find it out? Easy because 

Your Creator has created you with the following belief & faculties:

Belief: you worship none but your Creator Allah Alone! And you have made a covenant with your Creator on this effect before He sent you here (to try you as to whether you are a liar or a truthful one).

Moreover, He has shown you the right way and given you the natural knowledge to distinguish between the right and the wrong.

Faculties: He has equipped you with the faculties of uderstanding, hearing and seeing so that you can follow the way He has shown to you, renew & keep your covenant which you have made with Him and perform your most

important duty of worshiping Him Alone.

If you fail in your obligations & duties you will be punished in Hell. If you fulfill your obligations and duties you will be rewarded with Paradise. Your excuse of not knowing the Straight Way and your excuse of not knowing your obligations & duties to your Creator will not avail you in the Hereafter! 

This is why I have started this topic : the Qur'an, and started the question:     How is that most of the people, figures, stories in the Qur'an are similar to those in the Bible ? And that those stories are already known in the then Mediteranean world for more than 600 years before Islam was born? I put up this question already 3 years ago, but from the subsequent discussions, there was no clear answer. If we can have some picture, some idea, even vaguely,  of what is the relationship, the connection between the Bible and the Qur'an, then we may have a better understanding of our faiths, and move closer to each other. The gap between both faiths at present can, hopefully, be narrowed, and then bridged one day.

What muslims believe in regard to Bible is that it is a book written by men! The name of the original revelation which was given to Prophet Iesa, son of Maryam, is Injil (Gospel) and this does not exist any more in its true form! It has been altered /corrupted by men from time to time.

There might be few statements of Bible which are consistent with the Injil. Therefore, muslims do not reject those statements because what was written in Injil was Allah's revelation and thus will not contradict the Holy Quran! 

You should know that, as I have explained to you before, Allah's religion is one religion (Islam) which He ordained for His slaves via various Prophets (peace be upon them) from time to time. And the Holy Quran contains the confirmation of the previous Messages! Therefore, we are not surprised if some statements from your Bible (i.e. altered/corrupted Injil) are similar to the Holy Quran.

There is no question of a gap between Islam and any other religions! This is because Islam does not recognise any other religion at the first place. Therefore, question of narrowing the "gap" & "bridged" is irrevalent. If you worship Allah Alone then we are together otherwise please ponder over the following Verse from the Holy Quran:        

60:4. Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibr�him (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides All�h, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in All�h Alone," except the saying of Ibr�him (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from All�h) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before All�h." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return,

Regards,

Sarkeranwar

Firewall : no problem ! I believe in what you said about Moslem being a non-violent, peace-loving faith. I am just still wondering, why there are still so many violent Moslems today. I need not mention where, you and everybody knows where.

I repeatedly mentioned the case of some hundreds of churches that were burned and destroyed in my country during the past 7 years. And just 2 weeks ago there some 10 churches besieged by some Moslem factions here. Why ? Can you answer my  question ?

I was told by some Moslem friends that there are hostile verses in the Qur'an which do not tolerate other faiths in their environment. And which are used by the militant Moslem groups to justify their terror and violence. What is your comment on this?

I am just asking for some explanations, some answers.

I am sorry if you consider my asking as an attack on Islam, and I don't feel that way. Just asking for answers on several actual, existing, current facts. And is it insulting and disrespectful if I asked something which is not clear to me?

Sakeranwar :  No, of course I understand your statement on how Islam views the other religions, so it is not an attack. My wish was just a precaution that we don't get tempted to do that in order  to have a smooth discussion.

And, to have a smooth two-way discussion, what is your comment on:

1] what if I said that Christianity is a monotheistic faith as well?

2] And that this monotheistic faith based religion has already existed for 600 years befor the Prophet Mohammad was born? This the truth.

3] That the Day of Judgement and Resurrection is also in the Bible and one of the fundaments of Christianity, which means, that the Christians are fully aware of this Day of Judghement and Resurrection, already 600 years before the Prophet?

4]  I don't think it is necessary for you to warn the Christians abot God's anger if one is trespasing his commands. It is in the Bible .... 600 years before.

I deliberately mention those 600 years, because of curiosity why the Qur'an contains stories, characters, etc. already known to Christians long before. What is the realtionship between the Qur'an and the Bible?

We, Moslems and Christians alike, certainly believe on One God, and worship the SAME GOD?

I personally believe this, and that is why I just like to know if there is a certain connection between the Qur'an and the Bible.

5]  Ha, exactly what you said:  which word of God is right and which is not right? That's why I am still wondering to what extent the same characteres and stories and moral and ethical rules and regulations in the Qur'an are original. And even it is NOT original, the source is the same, the only One God that both faiths worship, so it is authentic.

6]  If you say that Moslems believe that the Bible is written by men, that is true. Only, that it is written NOT based on those men's minds, no, the writings are based of what God has conveyed to them. Just the same as the Qur'an is conveyed to the Prophet, and he, in turn, has conveyed it to mankind.

Well, if Islam does not recognise the other religions, does it mean that a Moslem is not allowed to listen to what other religions have to say? Not even from Chrstians who believe in the same God -- assuming you agree with this opinion?

Thanks and best wishes.--

Tom.-