The Qur’an II

Hi Dayem,

Thanks for the extensive response. My comments are inserted.

EARLIER POSTED BY TOM:

"No, Christianity believes just in One and Only God, as Islam does."

Arnt u contradicting urself?Any way, i will ignore it.

No, not at all. You need not ignore it. Just tell me.

That Christianity believes in one God only ? Because you haven't read the Bible, then I will show the relevant verses or you :

Exodus 20 : 2-5 : [I'm quoting only these 4 verses, there are lots and lots of other verses reiterating this] These 3 verses declare the 1st and 2nd of the 10 Commandents, given by God through the prophet Moses :

" [2] I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. [3] You shall have no other gods before me. [4] You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or in the waters below. [5] You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, .... "

About Jesus Christ as his son :

In John 10: verse 30 Jesus says of himself  "I and the Father are One". In John 17 verse 21 Jesus says "... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you."

There are lots and lots of other verses of, but let us keep it short, because in this thread we are supposed to discuss the Qur'an, not the Bible. There should be another thread to discuss the Bible.

Say tom, how come there r so many ERRORS in and CLEAR CUT CONTRADICTION in Bible?

You know why? Simply because during the times, 2000 - 3000 years ago when God conveyed his words to his prophets there were no tape recorders yet, no computers ....... no stationary ...... That's why. Can you picture it? All God's messages were only recorded on stone or papyrus and first transmitted mouth to mouth, and then written by heart...... Just, from what I read, as the messages of the Qur'an underwent that phase of, well, recording technology .... That the transmissions finally were subjected to errors or contradictions is easily understood.

And it is just the same with the Qur'an I think. The transmission of mouth by mouth of God's messages is bound to have errors resulting in contradictions. Very simple and very human. If you follow the other thread where I am also active and where now some doctrinal issues are being discussed, "Marriages with people of the Book", there are now 2, let me say, "perceptions" emerging on whether according to the Qur'an, Jews and Christians belong to "disbelievers" or not. One perception says "yes" supported by many verses, and the other perceptions says no, at this moment, without quoting the supporting verses [which I asked them to give.]

But, but, my dear friend, as I have frequently mentioned it in so many postings : DON'T LOOK AT THE LEAVES, BUT LOOK AT THE WHOLE TREE OF CHRISTIANITY. Look at the main branches and trunks. Old and dried and irrelevant leaves will always be present. But it is the main picture of the tree that counts.I myself also try to look and understand Islam not by its leaves but by the whole tree of Islam, the whole big picture of Islam.

I posed this question in christian chatroom(Yahoo!'s)and was replied 'This is not original Bible as revealed by God, as it had been trasnsalted from different languages. 'I understand that becoz of this bible may contain some errors.BUT WHAT ABOUT BIG ERRORS?there r thousands of errors in Bible.How can u follow the claim of what Bible says?A book containig errors?It couldnt be the word of God now, with SO many pollution in it?

I think I have commented on this already above.

  now Quran claims that this  book also contain the words of people who added lots of other thing for there personal gain!And that looks like truth.

I think it is ok if the Qur'an claims that. But, is it true? Like for instance that it is purely nonsense that Jesus Christ is God himself, as the Qur'an says? And that human beings have just created that and so must be dismissed as a lie, etc. etc?

Well, based that cardinal and paramount belief that you and I truly and truly believe that there is only One God, One Super-Super-Super Being, then based on this, then my comment is:

 If the Qur'an says that Jesus is God himself is purely a human invention, then it is not logical. God in the Bible says = the word of the same God that you and I believe in, that Jesus is himself. So, it is NOT A human invention. God Himself says that. It is NOT made up by men. Must what God has declared of himself be corrected? With all due respect for the Qur'an, here there is an error in saying that it is invented by humans, it is already 300 years in the Bible that God himself said that Jesus is himself. Not men, humans, said that, but God himself.

So, if u say that letus remove the irrelevent portion, how will u know wat is true and and what not?U will need another book of God to judge the claims of Bible.And alhamdillilah, we now have another book for that purpose.......a book from God.........Guess?
Im not saying anything against bible, in school, i had one chapter from the Holy Bible and it is really cool and full of wonderful teachings.More or less, the whole thing macthes with the teaching of Quran.But alas, the whole Bible is not like that.

Well, I mean by "irrelevant" portions, just not the verses which are not related to the matter in question.

2]  Well Christ is one of the "forms" as you mentioned it yourself : of H2O, where H20 is God. And, of course he can eat food as a human does, but he can also do without food, as God. Why should we conclude that "if God ate food he will cease to be God" ?  Because God does'nt need food? But if he wants to act and to be a human being and eat food, what is wrong with that?

I dont know if there is any verse in Bible which says that God dont require any food, as he is above such needs, but i believe there is one verse in Holy Quran that states that God dont require food(Im not sure).Anyway I was only giving an example of food.As i hv already told u that God cannot do everything and anything, rather he has the POWER over everything.
In fact I can prepear a list of things which God cant do.
a)He cant kill himself.(Logic)
b)He cannot die(like u believe Jesus(PBUH) did, anyway thats not true)
c)Allah says in Quran,"there are none like Him".So if he cant create another God.And even if there were more than one God, how come there happens to be so much of Harmony in nature?
d)God cant tell a lie(now plz dont reply with"Ah, thats what u think".plz)
e)He cant contradict himself(agree?Then u will have to agree that Bible is not the pure word frm God)

My dear friend, 1] God is not contradicting himself, He is like H2O .... remember? and 2] Please listen to us that the Bible is the word of God given to mankind through various people.

f)He cant take the form of Human being or Jinn and act accordingly(like eating drinking, etc.)
In fact there r lots of other thing which God cant do.Reflect.

No? Why not ? He is God, All powerful etc ......

3]  Yes, Yesus can do miracles, just because he is God. If you say that it is GIVEN to him, that is also OK. Why should God not be able to give something to himself ? Perhaps too difficult to grasp?  Not difficult if we human beings, use our reason, our mind, our ratio, and just understand that God is the Super-Super-Super Being, and ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.  Without any limitations. Without limitations and just beyond the capapcity of our human logic. He can become a human being and eat.

See f) above.How did I say that?cant God take the form of human beings?Yeah maybe he can.

Why maybe? Why doubt it ? It is so logical and reasonable !

If u insist so much on that, i will agree for the sake of argument that he can take the form of Human Beings.

My dear friend, it is not I who insist, it is God, in the Bible.

BUT I WONT AGREE ON THE STATEMENT THAT HE CAN EVEN LIVE THE LIFE LIKE HUMANS.Why?

Why not? He is God after all, as we both agree ....... I am not going to worship a god who has not enough powers to do that .....

God cant eat and drink and go to bathroom like humans.U say that it is beyond the human logic to imagine that but it is possible.

Why can't God eat and drink like a human being? Why not? It IS beyond our imagination but still within our logic.

Thomas, lemme remind u that u r arguing with HUMANS and we people use only that much logic as has been provided by Almighty.Why, if I use my wild  Imagination, I can say that God can even lie.GOD LIEING????Impossible.

Of course it is impossible that God is lying. Only humans lie. And I don't think we should argue about this.

But now I say that " Perhaps too difficult to grasp?  Not difficult if we human beings, use our reason, our mind, our ratio, and just understand that God is the Super-Super-Super Being, and ABLE TO DO ANYTHING.  Without any limitations. Without limitations and just beyond the capapcity of our human logic. He can become a human being and eat.& lie. and what not".But no, we muslim have faith and it is faith which gives us trust.
I gv u this example.I invent a t.v then to correct it I dont hv to become a t.v set.Remember?

Frankly I don't really understand this example. Do you mean the TV is Jesus ? Well, once again, according to God himself in the Bible, the TV is also I ..... !

4]  The word Father is mentioned in the Bible, and if you judge it wrong, here I say that you don't listen what the Bible says. That's why : just read the Bible, and, of course, most effectively, with guidance of a Christian scholar. "Father" is just being used as in our daily lives, with "Son". But : mind you, both remain H2O.

I agree.Though i havnt read Bible, even if i will, I will have Quran with me so that i can check regulerly the fact of matter.And no, I dont need any christian scholar breathing on my neck as i read bible.Reason?because these people r already christian, that is, they already believe in abook with lots of error as the book of God.I must say I wont be able to trust them and their ideas.
If, for a hundredth time,ther property were not  to change, then the "son" would not have lived the life like human.

Well, here I must really say that if you have those prejudices, then you don't come far, if you really want to know and understand more about the Bible and Christianity. You can only understand us more if you throw away any prejudices and be open, and LISTEN, to what Christianity says.  And my dear friend and brother, If you listen, don't listen to the scholar explaining you, but listen what the Bible, God's words say.

My discussions with you and many others has just the sole purpose to understand Islam better. And frankly, in the back of my mind I hope to see the wordS of God in the Qur'an and Bible as an integrated one, and not as a seperated parts. A truly long, long shot, but why not?

5] About PS :  I know that Islam considers to be a correction and rectification of the Bible. But, my still unanswered question : What exactly has been corrected? OK, Yesus Christ as God's son, I was explained with the relevant verses of the Qur'an. But then: what about Yesus Christ to be the Judge of us all during Judgment and Resurrection Day ?

There u go.Honest, hv u read Quran?What exactly u think quran is:a corrected bible?In many a way it is.But it has other things also, not only about past and all that.Did u expected that Quran will point each and every error of bible, mark it with red pen and correct it?

Well, several other Moslem friends have explained to me in many postings, and, supported by relevant verses, that this view is held by Islam. That the Qur'an has corrected and rectified the Bible. If I have misunderstood this, please correct me. And good friend, of course I don't expect the Qur'an to point and correct everything in the Bible, I told you that I don't look at the leaves of the Islam tree, but at the whole tree itself. And I am not being so naive.....

Anyway,Jesus (PBUH) is not the son of God is mentioned in the quran  , and, applying common sense, if he was not the son of God, he was a human.When Allah(swt) clarified this, do u honestly think that there was any need left to state that Jesus(PBUH) a prophet, will judge the whole humanity??

Once again, listen to the word of our God in the Bible. It is not me or whoever human being that claims that Jesus is God. It is God himself that says so.

It will be almighty Allah who will judge u and me and everyone in this wide world.You are warned, beaware.

Because Yesus as the Supreme Judge has also been mentioned in the Qur'an as I was told. Being stated in the Qur'an then it is still valid what the Bible says?

On the day of judgement Jesus (PBUH) will be brought forward and Allah will ask him why he told the people a lie, by claiming he was God?To which Jesus(PBUH) will reply that he never said that and You know it.
This much i am aware.I dont hv any knowledege as Jesus being the Supreme judge.Can u plz give me the surah and ayat no.?

I was just asking you about Jesus being our all Supreme Judge. Let me check my files where I read that in the Qur'an.

Then the logical question, on what the Qur'an says:  why ISA Al Masih is the Supreme Judge and not God himself? [Because we Christians believe that Yesus is God then for us it is just simply logic.]

 First confirm ur statement(that Jesus(PBUH) by giving refrenc plz.I dont hv god memory, but as far as i know, I hvnt come across this verse in which Jesus(PBUH) is said to be the Judge.

6]  About mother or motherhood: very simpel : the mother is to blame. But, I still have no firm answer on whether those hostile verses really exists in the Qur'an ? I was told that those violent factions do have justification to exercise terror, but then you imply that there are no verses allowing that?

No, the claim is utterly wrong.You ask me where u hv problem(and plz give refrence no.).If u want u can search on the internet.There r lots of sites which accuses islam of this and that..........lots of lie , ridiculus and absurd claims.................

My dear friend, it is all over TV and all other media that the current violent actions in various parts of the world by certain Islamic factions justify their acts on verses in the Qur'an, jihad etc. Not the non-Moslems accuse these factions, no, THEY THEMSELVES SAY SO, the are all jihad missions, if I recall it -- sorry if I mis-formulated this.

This sofar, Dayem, if there are still other questions I have not commented on just tell me.
Thanx Tom, ur answer was very good and u had tackled everything I wrote be4.

I want to keep my posting short, reader-friendly.

Thats nice.But here is a advice before u reply:Jesus(PBUH) said,"Why do u see the speck in that is in your brothers eye, but do not notice the log that is in your eye?Or how can u say,"let me take the speck out of your eye", when there is log in your own eye?"
So plz look at ur own religion before commenting on mine.

Sorry, it was not my intention to speak for Islam. I don't dare at all. If I said something about Islam then it is because I read it or heard it from others. I was just posing questions and asking for answers and my comments were purely relating to the matter under discussion. And please refrain from such emotional sentences like the last one above, it gives a very immature impression and it leads to nowhere. We are doing these discussions in good faith and with good intentions, don't we? Not just attack at each other's faith.

Thanks.-
U r most welcomed,
Tom.-
Dayem.
PS>Why do u call Jesus(PBUH) as Yesus?

Sorry, I used the spelling of my native language. It should be 'Jesus in' English.

It was a real pleasure to discuss this. Because you are most responsive.

Best wishes.

Tom.-