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DNA Analysis proves evolution

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biggerjohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biggerjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 March 2015 at 5:22pm
Thanks, and please call me John
 
Actually I'd tell the judge in the paternity suit it couldn't have been me..... I was ummmm... in Albuquerque nine months ago... yeah, that's it Big%20smile
 
You have some good points, unfortunately I have no time right now (already 20 minutes late). I'll try and pick this up again tomorrow.
 
Always sincere.... sometimes serious,
John B
 
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Quranexplorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quranexplorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2015 at 7:10am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Chimpanzees did not become humans, any more than humans became chimps. Perhaps you should understand the theory before you criticise it.


Let me phrase it this way to avoid these excuses with terminologies [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle" /> :

There is no observational evidence for a non-human becoming a human being.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

If you want the specific laws that relate DNA comparisons to ancestral distance, you can find them on the Internet, but I warn you that they involve some extremely complex mathematics. I'm certainly not qualified to discuss them, nor I suppose are you.


I agree I am not a a specialist to discuss these extremely complex mathematical equations. But that doesn't take away the fact that there is no universal law which links 2 different DNAs as a function of the assumptions made under the theory of evolution.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

There are many such experiments, but you dismiss them all as being within species. One would not expect direct observation of evolution from one species to another, because that takes millions of years.But as I said, we don't need direct observation of species evolution any more than we need to directly observe your grandfather to know that you are related to your cousins. We have DNA evidence, which is regarded as conclusive beyond any reasonable doubt.


All these experiments you mention have the same creature (I don't want to use the term species as people seems to be interested in finding an excuse around this definition [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle" />) at the beginning of the experiment and at the end of the experiment--an E.coli bacteria at the beginning of the experiment still remains and E.coli at the end of the experiment. The changes within a particular creature is a fact whether you call it evolution or something else-- because all the human beings who originated from a single pair of human beings originally are now so diverse with so many different races.

My points are:

1. The changes observed within a creature does not automatically prove that such changes can bring about a change of one creature to another. If you think that is possible, why not the the same experiments where the E.coli evolves over a number of stages be used to evolve that E.coli to something other than an E.coli?
2. You are just saying a 2% DNA difference between humans and chimpanzees suggest a common ancestor some million years ago--I'm saying it's just an assumption as there is no experimental evidence or observational evidence--even the historic fossil evidence fail to provide a complete chain showing the transition of one creature to another.


Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It's not speculation. DNA of chimpanzees and humans have been repeatedly compared in a variety of ways, and all estimates come up with about 2% difference. And as I keep saying, common ancestry is measured by DNA difference.


If we try to put your whole DNA argument is simple terms:

DNA2=DNA1+function of something

The points to note are:

1. No clue on how so much intelligent information originally came in DNA1
2. No credible explanation for the real process of DNA1 getting transformed to DNA2
3. No experimental or observational evidence for even one transition of DNA1 to DNA2.

All you are saying is 2% is a small number and why not blindly take it as an evidence for a common ancestor!![IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle" />.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Quote On the other hand I would say if humans with 99.99% same DNA can be so different with so many races, a 200 times difference between humans and chimpanzees means an unbridgeable gap between 2 species.
Now that is mere speculation. [IMG]smileys/smiley17.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Tongue" />


But that is closer to reality as there in no credible evidence to suggest chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor!


Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

You complain about lack of experimental evidence, and yet you postulate Intelligent Design?? [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" />


I fully understand that Intelligent Design cannot be proved, and the whole point I am making is so is TE--it's only a belief and I have no problems if we are on the same page on this [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle" />

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

You should probably read Darwin's Origin of Species. Darwin made decades of observation before formulating the theory.


How could he possibly observe something which you say only happens in a million of years?

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

No case is ever 100% perfect, but the fossil evidence is quite strong enough to make the case satisfactorily to any fair-minded individual. What I was saying is that you will never accept the evidence because there will always be gaps, albeit smaller and smaller gaps.Anyway, I'm not discussing fossil evidence here. The case I am making is that the DNA evidence, on its own, tells us that all living things share a common ancestry. We don't even need the fossils.


May be the whole TE makes sense to someone as a faith based belief. But it certainly does not make it a fact.

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

And yet law courts accept DNA evidence as conclusive beyond any reasonable doubt. [IMG]smileys/smiley24.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Ermm" />I'm not sure what kind of experimental evidence you want. Human DNA produces human beings; chimp DNA produces chimpanzees. You want somebody to create an intermediate creature by blending the two genomes somehow? It might be possible to do, but would it be ethical? And what would it prove anyway?


My point is DNA evidence to connect 2 human beings does not automatically connect humans to the next closer species !

If human DNA always produces human being and chimp DNA always produces chimpanzees, then why the confusion of linking 2% DNA difference to a common ancestor a million years ago when there is no evidence for such a connection?

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Maybe no advantages that are apparent to you, but they make perfect sense to me. Music, art and religion all play roles in social bonding and group identification. The ability to ponder the nature of the universe is fundamental to science, and is probably the ultimate survival advantage.

    

I can�t see that. I don�t see anybody at survival risk for not being a musician, an artist, a religious guy or a science enthusiast.


Edited by Quranexplorer - 20 March 2015 at 8:44am
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biggerjohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biggerjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 March 2015 at 5:13pm

I want to try something different for a moment (different at least for me) let�s pretend for a moment that I do not believe in God or �intelligent design�.

 Earlier, when I wrote of some �primordial pool of soup� I was only being a little sarcastic (had I used my original wording �primordial sludge� then that would have been really sarcastic J). However, since that time I have been reflecting on the concept. In all seriousness, I should have said Primordial Ocean, because that is now pretty much how I envision the start of life on this planet. This primordial ocean was a vast body of water teaming with raw matter, ripe for life to begin.

I would also like to amend my use of the word �chance�; not necessarily in favor of �natural selection� (I�ll get to that later) but in favor of the idea that the emergence of life, when conditions are just right, is almost inevitable. Life is aggressive, it fights to take hold and survive. Even in some of the most inhospitable places on earth, miles underneath the ocean surface or at sub-zero temperatures imbedded in rock, life persists, even thrives.  Look up �Riftia pachyptila� (Giant Tube Worms), and �Green Algae� in Antarctica. LIFE HAPPENS! Stopping it from happening might actually be the real challenge� the weeds in my backyard are proof of that. J

The significance of all of this is the idea that I do not think that it was just one super organism, stronger than all the octillion failed organisms, that crawled up onto land, sprouted legs, and then became the common ancestor of all life on this planet. I think life would have just exploded from that ocean with countless organisms thriving, taking hold and developing. Many things would have emerged from that state. They would have all been similar, made of the same basic raw elements, and all related (for the exact same reason why they are similar).

Evolutions does not have to mean all species are descended from any one common ancestor. The vast number of species that call this planet home are varied and complex. To me at least multiple ancestors make more sense. I don�t think there is much plant DNA in me (aside from perhaps the salad I had last night) and I would like to think I�m not too closely related to cockroaches. I Don�t have much of a problem with the thought of being related to chimp or a bear (the bear part would explain much of my appetite). Were I to subscribe to the theory of Evolution I would most definitely lean towards an opinion of multiple ancestors not all directly related to every other species.  

OK, pretend time over� back to being a close minded Creationist J.

For me it has always been a question of design or not? Did life emerge and evolve simply because that is what life does (which is quite plausible), or was there a higher intelligence who planned, orchestrated, and guided the formation of life here?

My vote is for the higher intelligence.

Always sincere�. sometimes serious,

John B

I will have to venture into the whole �survival of the fittest/natural selection� aspect of things come Monday or Tuesday. THE WEEKEND IS HERE� AND I AM NOT!!!!

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Quranexplorer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quranexplorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2015 at 6:37am
Hi Ron,
For me the whole study fits very well with concept of the whole humanity originating from a single pair of humans originally and then developing and acquiring all these diversities within the human species. DNA evidence to connect human to human is a natural outcome of the observation that a human DNA always generates only a human DNA.

There is nothing in this study suggesting that the DNA evidence within the human species suggesting a common origin can be extrapolated to link humans to a non-human origin. There is no experimental evidence, no observational evidence and not even one complete fossil evidence!

Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Hey Quranexplorer (or anyone),I'm curious to know what you think of a study like this:
[COLOR="#000066"]DNA study shows Celts are not a unique genetic group[/COLOR">By Pallab Ghosh Science correspondent, BBC NewsA DNA study of Britons has shown that genetically there is not a unique Celtic group of people in the UK.According to the data, those of Celtic ancestry in Scotland and Cornwall are more similar to the English than they are to other Celtic groups.The study also describes distinct genetic differences across the UK, which reflect regional identities.And it shows that the invading Anglo Saxons did not wipe out the Britons of 1,500 years ago, but mixed with them....
It's exactly the same kind of analysis that measures the genetic distance between us and other primates.� If it's valid for identifying tribal relationships, then why not species relationships?� Or if it's not valid, then why is it considered valid for immediate families and distant cousins?

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airmano View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airmano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2015 at 3:36am
John
Quote ...or was there a higher intelligence who planned, orchestrated, and guided the formation of life here?
...My vote is for the higher intelligence.
Even at the risk of repeating myself:

Any idea on How and Why God does this ? Why there are so many flaws in the design ? Why don't we have a "natural resistance" against (genetic) diseases ?
Why does God keep on designing new and vicious diseases ?

-----------------------------------------------------

QE: HIV is nowadays considered as a species of its own. We do also know where it originally came from.

And now ?


Airmano

Edited by airmano - 24 March 2015 at 3:43am
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biggerjohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biggerjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2015 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by airmano airmano wrote:

John
Quote ...or was there a higher intelligence who planned, orchestrated, and guided the formation of life here?
...My vote is for the higher intelligence.
Even at the risk of repeating myself:

Any idea on How and Why God does this ? Why there are so many flaws in the design ? Why don't we have a "natural resistance" against (genetic) diseases ?
Why does God keep on designing new and vicious diseases ?

-----------------------------------------------------

QE: HIV is nowadays considered as a species of its own. We do also know where it originally came from.

And now ?


Airmano
Sorry for the delay in responding. Your questions are excellent and I appreciate them very much.
 
HOW... I do not understand how God does all these things... my mind is often blown by how complex and amazing life is. I do not think I see the same flaws in nature as you do. I don't think of death as a flaw. I don't think that death by disease is a flaw (OK that sounded weird... but I'll still let it stand). There are many ways to die, disease is just one. That said, much of what we suffer from is our own doing... until recent years I was heading down a path that was likely to end with the words "Death by Hamburger" etched on my tombstone.
 
WHY... Life is about gaining experience, growing, and learning. A life without challenges is a life without advancement and betterment. Opposition is how we grow. Interestingly enough that is one of the fundamental elements of "natural selection/survival of the fittest."
 
Having now said all of the above, I must now add the following.... "Life is not FAIR." It simply isn't. But I do not believe that this life is all that there is. I very much believe that while life is not fair, eternity is.... thanks to God.
 
Always sincere... sometimes serious,
John B  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote biggerjohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2015 at 4:39pm

As I understand it �natural selection� is all about adapting, developing, persisting, and surviving�. �Survival of the fittest.� Simply put, those life forms that are the best at adapting, best at developing and changing, they are the ones that survive. Those species (or sub-species) that don�t adapt well enough don�t survive; and the opposite of survival is extinction.

My thoughts:

There are myriads of different life forms on this planet. The number of species and subspecies within just the insect world is staggering. Now let�s combine that with all the different forms of life that thrive in our oceans. If that is not overwhelming enough yet let�s add birds to that mix, reptiles too, mammals, primates, etc.. The numbers of species that call this planet home is mind blowing.

Of all the species that have had any kind of existence on this planet, how many do you think have gone extinct? How many species have we seen go extinct in the past few hundred years (after all, as humans we are pretty lousy caretakers)? I would venture to say that, percentage wise, the number of species and or sub-species that have gone extinct is low. Furthermore, many that have gone extinct (such as dinosaurs) may have done so because of some catastrophic event and not as a result of �natural selection.� I think that the traditional model of only the strongest or fittest species thriving and surviving is inaccurate.

Consider for a moment Canines; I am not even going to venture a guess at the number of species and sub-species there are, but that number would be massive, and likely still growing. Which breed would most consider more �fit�, a German Shepherd or a Chihuahua? How about a Pit-bull or a Pomeranian? Each of these breeds is just as prolific as the other� actually the Chihuahua is likely more prolific then them all (does that actually make Chihuahuas the FITTEST?!� J). If only the strongest survived I do not imagine there would be nearly as many dog breeds in the world today as there are now.

The prevailing opinion in relation to �Natural Selection� and �Survival of the Fittest� seems to be that life is ever looking for new ways to improve; essentially engaging in a near endless loop of trial and error, failure and success (actually it is thought to be more like failure, failure, failure, failure, success, failure, failure, success, failure, failure, failure�.). I don�t think that that is quite how it works.  

I think life is stubborn and doesn�t ever give up easily. I think that the vast majority of life on this planet is strong and very resistant to extinction. I do not believe that just the fittest survive. I do not believe that nature is as cutthroat as man is; indeed I think that the whole concept of �survival of the fittest� may very well be a result of us projecting our own thinking on the natural world around us.

The more I ponder over the world with all of its amazing life, beauty, and strength, the more I am convinced that there is a power behind it all. A creator and an organizer.

 

Always sincere�sometimes serious,

John B

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2015 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Quranexplorer Quranexplorer wrote:

There is no observational evidence ...

I'm not sure what you mean by "observational evidence", but if you are limiting yourself to what can be directly observed, then you are discarding 90% of science.  How many scientific disciplines rely solely on what can be directly observed?  Can we directly observe the atoms in a molecule, or the interior of the earth?

Quote ...for a non-human becoming a human being.

No non-human ever became a human.  Are you sure you understand the theory? Wink

Quote I agree I am not a a specialist to discuss these extremely complex mathematical equations. But that doesn't take away the fact that there is no universal law which links 2 different DNAs as a function of the assumptions made under the theory of evolution.

So when an evolutionary biologist says that 2% difference corresponds with a common ancestor about ten million years ago, you think he's just pulling a number out of his, umm, head?  You admit you're not qualified to discuss this, so how can you just casually dismiss their calculations?

I don't know if you'd call it a universal law, but there is a generally agreed-upon approach to using DNA markers to estimate the time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA).  You can read about various models here.  I suggest you click on the "Quick version" link.  The "very technical details" made my head hurt, and it's not even the most technical explanation I have seen.

Quote 1. The changes observed within a creature does not automatically prove that such changes can bring about a change of one creature to another. If you think that is possible, why not the the same experiments where the E.coli evolves over a number of stages be used to evolve that E.coli to something other than an E.coli?

Because it would take longer than the lifetime of the human experimenter.  But please explain what you mean by "creature".  There is a pretty compelling fossil record showing the progression of the ancient eohippus to modern day horses and zebras over fifty million years.  Are the eohippus, the modern horse and the zebra all the same "creature"?

Quote 2. You are just saying a 2% DNA difference between humans and chimpanzees suggest a common ancestor some million years ago--I'm saying it's just an assumption as there is no experimental evidence or observational evidence--even the historic fossil evidence fail to provide a complete chain showing the transition of one creature to another.

If I had DNA evidence showing that you and your cousin shared a common ancestor (i.e., your grandparents), would I need experimental or observational evidence to back it up?  Do I need to dig up your grandfather's grave?

Quote If we try to put your whole DNA argument is simple terms:

DNA2=DNA1+function of something

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.  DNA2 is not just DNA1 with other stuff added to it.  Again, that's not how evolution works.

Quote The points to note are:

1. No clue on how so much intelligent information originally came in DNA1
2. No credible explanation for the real process of DNA1 getting transformed to DNA2
3. No experimental or observational evidence for even one transition of DNA1 to DNA2.

1. It's called natural selection.
2. It's called mutation.
3. We have oodles of evidence of DNA transitions.  What you're looking for is evidence that crosses some arbitrary "creature" boundary.  Unfortunately you haven't defined this boundary, nor offered any mechanism that could explain how it is determined or why it cannot be crossed.

Quote All you are saying is 2% is a small number and why not blindly take it as an evidence for a common ancestor!!

I'm applying exactly the same rules of evidence for a common ancestor between chimps and humans as we use to demonstrate a common ancestor between you and your cousin.  There's nothing blind about it.

Quote My point is DNA evidence to connect 2 human beings does not automatically connect humans to the next closer species !

Why not?  Why is it valid to compare you and your cousin's DNA, but not to compare human and chimp DNA?  Ah yes, that nebulous "creature boundary"! LOL

Quote I can�t see that. I don�t see anybody at survival risk for not being a musician, an artist, a religious guy or a science enthusiast.

It's not about individual survival.  It's about tribal or species survival.  You don't think that belief in a divine protector or a heavenly reward might encourage warriors to fight harder and longer to protect their tribe, or conquer other tribes?  You don't think songs and stories lauding brave soldiers might do the same?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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