Is Jesus God?

2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: Dear Saved, In Islam, not only Jesus who said "I am the Way ..." I believe that other Messengers of Allah also said like that, for example, Allah told the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran 3:31. Regards, Asep Quaran 31 says - "Obey Allah and the messenger." That is different from what Jesus said. Jesus did not say "obey me to find the way" He said I AM The way. Be one in me" ! Dear 2Acts, Yes, you are right that in Quran 3:31, Muslims should follow the Prophet Muhammad (in the way of worship) if Muslims want to be loved by Allah. Do you mean the words of Jesus: "I am the way ..."? whether it's an order to follow the way of worship Jesus or not? or whether the intent of "Be one in me" is that all Christians united with Jesus? Could you explain it? Regards, Asep Hi Asep. The verse you are referring to is John 14.6 where Jesus said �"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.� From this it is obvious it is much more than just an order to follow the way of worship of Jesus. Yes it is closer to all Christians being united with Jesus. Jesus says he is not just THE Way. But HE is THE TRUTH and the LIFE. We must come through HIM to the father. Peace to you.

Dear 2Acts,

Well 2Acts, please if it is your belief, and the belief of Muslims that Jesus was a Messenger of God who has the same tasks with the other Messengers of God, even he will be assigned again by God to earth when this universe approaching apocalypse.

Regards,
Asep

2Acts wrote: Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous!

My Dear friend,

This is not a contradiction. In fact this can even be proven scientifically in our time.

First you need to understand the Arabic words. The below is the English Translation:

(18:65) (And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;

The sun was about to set in the Western hemisphere when he reached the shores of a sea. Beyond the sea he could see the sunset. Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.

Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!

A possible explanation for the name �Black Sea� is located in the unusually
dark color of its deep waters. The microalgae concentration is much richer causing the dark color. Underwater visibility in the Black Sea is much less than other seas like Mediterranean.

The following link has an article on Black Sea and even a picture that shows the Sun setting in the waters which obviously is an illusion, but thats how it really does appear to the naked eye.

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htm

That is why the English translators of the Quran have used the words "appeared to be" so to make sense of the Arabic: Wawajada Taghrubu for English speakers like yourself.

Why Allah chose to send Dhul Qarnayn there and why did He identify this sea in the final revelation for mankind? The answers to these can only be understood by those who study the Quran without bias.

syed_z wrote: 2Acts wrote: Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! My Dear friend,This is not a contradiction. In fact this can even be proven scientifically in our time. First you need to understand the Arabic words. The below is the English Translation:(18:65) (And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;The sun was about to set in the Western hemisphere when he reached the shores of a sea. Beyond the sea he could see the sunset. Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!A possible explanation for the name �Black Sea� is located in the unusually dark color of its deep waters. The microalgae concentration is much richer causing the dark color. Underwater visibility in the Black Sea is much less than other seas like Mediterranean. The following link has an article on Black Sea and even a picture that shows the Sun setting in the waters which obviously is an illusion, but thats how it really does appear to the naked eye.http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htmThat is why the English translators of the Quran have used the words "appeared to be" so to make sense of the Arabic: Wawajada Taghrubu for English speakers like yourself. Why Allah chose to send Dhul Qarnayn there and why did He identify this sea in the final revelation for mankind? The answers to these can only be understood by those who study the Quran without bias.

Hello Syed
I disagree. Here are a number of English translations and all of them say it is a muddy pond � not athe sea ! All of these translations agree with each other.
Pickthal � �when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring,�
Yusaf Ali � �when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water.�
Taqui Usman � �When he reached the point of sunset he found it setting in a miry spring.�
Dr Moshin � �when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. �
A spring or pond � not the sea


Edited by 2Acts - 02 December 2016 at 12:57am

asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: Dear Saved, I didn�t say �God may have sons by the tons as you mentioned�, I even deny that God has a son, even me explain to you what is stated in John 5:27 that there is the same understanding with the statement in the Quran 4: 171, Koran 5: 116-120 that Jesus is the son of man, not a son of God. You said �Theses titles concerning Jesus need to be looked at in the context of all the gospel. You cannot take one phrase and created a doctrine. � Therefore, I've read the contents of some of the Gospels, and I found a lot of contents aren't equal between one to another. do I need to prove? Regards, Asep Yes. You need to prove ! Dear 2Acts, Here are some evidence that I read: 1. Which one is true, 8 years or 18 years? "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and three months and ten days he reigned in Jerusalem. He did evil in the sight of God. "(The Book of 2 Chronicles 36:9) "Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother's name Nehusta bint Elnathan, from Jerusalem. "(The Book of 2 Kings 24:8) 2. Which one is right, God or the Devil? "Rise wrath of God against Israel; He incited David against them, He say, 'Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.' "(The Book of 2 Samuel 24:1) "Devil stood up against the people of Israel, and persuaded David to number Israel." (The Book of 1 Chronicles 21:1) 3. Verse unreasonable "And Shem and Japhet took a garment, and put on their shoulders, and walked retreat to the back and cover up his father naked and their faces turned their father in order not to see the body of their father were nude. And Noah awoke from hangover, he know what has been done by his two sons ". (Genesis 9: 23-24) Does God send Noah (a prophet) behaves like that? Could this fraud committed Jews to mislead the Christians? And many others. Regards, Asep Hi Asep The contradictions are easily explained. The Bible and Quran make different claims about them selves. The Bible is more like your hadith. It does not claim to be some kind of absolute literal WORD straight from God. Instead it claims to be the INSPIRED Word of God written by imperfect men. Basically it means �God breathed�. (2 Timothy 3.16) The Bible was written by human beings -men. Imperfect men who had the breath of God upon them. Men who were imperfect but yet were inspired. Any error in scripture is limited to the shortcomings of the vessel and not the message. Any such errors are limited and have no bearing on the ultimate message of the scriptures. The Scriptures are always right only in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God�s vision, God�s purposes, and God�s good news to humanity. The Bible�s message is directly inspired by God, and though he used human vessels to transport this message it remains accurate and trustworthy. However look at the Quran. Unlike the INSPIRED Bible - It is supposed to be the direct, absolute, literal, perfect WORD of God. But it has many problems and contradictions. The direct literal perfect WORD of GOD must not have problems and contradictions. Here are some examples- Contradictions � Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc. Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]? Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. Ridiculous � The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not. Sura 27:18-19 But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say. Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! Throwing Stars at the Devils? The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view. Sura 37.6-8 This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !? Dear 2Acts, ----------------------------------------- Here are some examples- Contradictions Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. ----------------------------------------- There�s no contradictions. Indeed surah 34:50 it like that, but the continuation of the verse "and if I got the hint, then it is due to what is revealed from my Lord. indeed He is Hearing, Most Near. " Such verse goes down when the companions of the Prophet always took the initiative to write down what was said by the Prophet, and he forbids to write other than what was ordered to be written. And verses to be written by them is only that which is revealed from God. Quran 53: 3-4 Then, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," He hinted to his companions that he was also a man who did not escape from doing wrong, as in a hadith narrated by Bukhari and Muslim: "All the descendants of Adam is guilty, and the best for those who guilty was who repent and not repeat mistakes." Apart from that, when he dies, his people do not worship him as God, as it has been done by the polytheists against Lata, Uzza, and Manat. ----------------------------- Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]? ---------------------------- The first Muslim is Adam. 02:37 � about: God provides a way to pray for the mistakes Adam, as mentioned in 07:23 02:127-133 about: Ya'kub descendants will worship only to the God of Abraham. 03:67 � about: Abraham is a muslim (muslim means one who surrender and submits to Allah) 06:14 � about: Muhammad is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam. 06:163 � (same with 06:14) 07:143 � about: Moses is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam like Abraham's religion. 26:51 � (same with 07:143) Explanation: Islam comes from the word "aslama" which means surrender or submission to Allah, and is derived from the word "salima" which means saved, thus says Islam can be defined that salvation from Allah. And the word Muslim is the subject or the person who runs the Islamic shariah. All the Apostles are surrender and worship only to one God. "Verily (this monotheism religion) is the religion of all of you, that is only one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al-Anbiya 21:92) Statement of the Apostles that they are the ones who surrendered to Allah, such as: Quran 02: 132, 10:72, 10:84, 21:25, 42:13 etc. ---------------------------------------- Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. --------------------------------------- What is mentioned in Surah 53: 1-18 and 81: 15-29 is that Muhammad saw Gabriel in the original form (not seeing God), that is in Sidratil Muntaha when it received the command about shalah 5 times a day and night, and when he was on earth. Then what is mentioned in Surah 6: 102-103 and 42:51 is indeed true that God can not be seen directly by the human eye sight. --------------------------------------- Ridiculous � The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not. Sura 27:18-19 But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say. Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! Throwing Stars at the Devils? The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view. Sura 37.6-8 ----------------------------------- There�s no ridiculous. What is referred to in Sura 27: 18-19 it is a real incident, because it is one of the miracles of the Prophet Solomon. Miracles is something extraordinary which no one is able to make it, because it is beyond human ability, therefore it can't be scientifically measured. What is referred to in Sura 18: 85-86 is that they see the sun set exactly vertically with a black muddy spring, and found a surrounding people who are not religious. Then, surah 37:6-8 �throwing stars at the devils.� Vision of the human eye is limited, whereas in this universe there are creatures that physically can be seen and some are not viewable (unseen), and it would be hard measured by science, and for a Muslim who was given the knowledge of the unseen (ghaib), they will believe it. Therefore the devils pelted with stars is a natural thing, because sometimes the earth is located between two devil horns. And that's one of the secrets of the dawn prayer (not all muslims know it). ------------------------- This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !? ------------------------------ I think quite the contrary, when the Quran was written, people didn't know the science, but the Quran has informed about science, and now one by one can be provable, for example: the sun has its own orbit, etc. Then, all the messengers of God was well-behaved, how will they be followed by their followers if they were behaved badly. Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of sahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an sahih hadith. Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following: "Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim) "Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari) "Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more. God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include: Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc. Regards, Asep

Hi Asep
Thank you for your explanations. Perhaps you are correct? Perhaps not? The fact is however, your explanations are not clear, they are complicated. Yet the Quran states that it is not complicated. The Quran is supposed to be clear! Surahs 11.1, 12.1, 27.1.41.3 and 57.9 state this. How can the clear and plain WORD of God be complicated?
Looking closely at Soloman and the ants in Surah 27.18-19 if this is a miracle it is onlt that Soloman understands the speech of ants and animals. However it is a fact - ants and animals do not speak!. If they could I could believe it that Soloman could understand them. But ants and animals do not speak. So this story in the Quran is not a "miracle" it is just a childs fairy tale.
Asep � is it impossible for the sun to sink into a muddy pond ! To say that stars are for throwing at the devils is just a fairy tale. Not even based on science. Ridiculous.
Actually Asep, the account of Mohamad he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails" cannot be strongly opposed to the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari because it is from Sahih Bukhari ! -Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234: !


Edited by 2Acts - 02 December 2016 at 3:13pm