Is Jesus God?

Syed_z on 18:65

(And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark. Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!

To start: The translation I trust the most is the word by word translation in Corpus Quran which leaves the interpetation to the reader. There the word "source/spring" and "mudd(y)" show up explicitly.     


I guess you have found your translation of 18:65 on a Website like this.

Looking at the individual translations therein you'll find that the vast majority translates it as something like "spring of muddy water".
First, can you explain how you can logically identify/link the word "spring" in sea ?

Looking at the translations that get closer to your version:

The Shakir translation goes: "down into a black sea", explicitly not "the black sea" (If Mohammed wanted to express so didn't the Black Sea have an (Arabic) name ?

Al-Muntakhab says:
"He took the lead in an expedition toward he west until he reached a body of water -said to be the Atlantic Ocean, or more likely a mirky land abounding in swamps"
Again in stark contrast to your claim.

Looking at the translation that comes closest to your claim we find
Shabbir Ahmed: (Conquering land to the West toward Lydia, he reached as far as the Black Sea.) The sun was setting and it appeared to him as if it was setting in the dark waters.
Looking at the wiki entry on Shabbir Ahmed we find that he started to learn Arabic in 1970, so a recent translation.

Another one along this line is the translation from Muhammad Assad, who published his translation in 1980.

So, besides the many "murky waters" there are only the two recent translations which may insinuate "Black Sea". It is however surprising that these translations always pop up (as the Quranic Miracles) when the error becomes obvious and can be seen worldwide.


So, no, the Black Sea interpretation is the usual stretching of the Arabic Language combined with retrofitting the facts to the Quran. And even if it was the black sea: The sun still doesn't settle in it.


Airmano

Edited by airmano - 03 December 2016 at 2:25pm

syed_z wrote: 2Acts wrote: Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! My Dear friend,This is not a contradiction. In fact this can even be proven scientifically in our time. First you need to understand the Arabic words. The below is the English Translation:(18:65) (And he marched westwards) till, when he came to the setting of the sun it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;The sun was about to set in the Western hemisphere when he reached the shores of a sea. Beyond the sea he could see the sunset. Hamiyattin means Dark Muddy, or dark turbid, something in it that causes it to appear dark. The Quran refers to the water of that sea as dark.Is there a huge body of water on earth that has dark waters? Yes there is, its called the Black Sea!A possible explanation for the name �Black Sea� is located in the unusually dark color of its deep waters. The microalgae concentration is much richer causing the dark color. Underwater visibility in the Black Sea is much less than other seas like Mediterranean. The following link has an article on Black Sea and even a picture that shows the Sun setting in the waters which obviously is an illusion, but thats how it really does appear to the naked eye.http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htmThat is why the English translators of the Quran have used the words "appeared to be" so to make sense of the Arabic: Wawajada Taghrubu for English speakers like yourself. Why Allah chose to send Dhul Qarnayn there and why did He identify this sea in the final revelation for mankind? The answers to these can only be understood by those who study the Quran without bias.

Qur�an 18:83-86�And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: �I shall recite to you something of his story.� Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991�Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

Muhammad literally said he found the setting of the sun in a spring muddy spring or hot water.
The hadiths are accurate reports of Muhammad.

2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: Dear Saved, I didn�t say �God may have sons by the tons as you mentioned�, I even deny that God has a son, even me explain to you what is stated in John 5:27 that there is the same understanding with the statement in the Quran 4: 171, Koran 5: 116-120 that Jesus is the son of man, not a son of God. You said �Theses titles concerning Jesus need to be looked at in the context of all the gospel. You cannot take one phrase and created a doctrine. � Therefore, I've read the contents of some of the Gospels, and I found a lot of contents aren't equal between one to another. do I need to prove? Regards, Asep Yes. You need to prove ! Dear 2Acts, Here are some evidence that I read: 1. Which one is true, 8 years or 18 years? "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and three months and ten days he reigned in Jerusalem. He did evil in the sight of God. "(The Book of 2 Chronicles 36:9) "Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother's name Nehusta bint Elnathan, from Jerusalem. "(The Book of 2 Kings 24:8) 2. Which one is right, God or the Devil? "Rise wrath of God against Israel; He incited David against them, He say, 'Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.' "(The Book of 2 Samuel 24:1) "Devil stood up against the people of Israel, and persuaded David to number Israel." (The Book of 1 Chronicles 21:1) 3. Verse unreasonable "And Shem and Japhet took a garment, and put on their shoulders, and walked retreat to the back and cover up his father naked and their faces turned their father in order not to see the body of their father were nude. And Noah awoke from hangover, he know what has been done by his two sons ". (Genesis 9: 23-24) Does God send Noah (a prophet) behaves like that? Could this fraud committed Jews to mislead the Christians? And many others. Regards, Asep Hi Asep The contradictions are easily explained. The Bible and Quran make different claims about them selves. The Bible is more like your hadith. It does not claim to be some kind of absolute literal WORD straight from God. Instead it claims to be the INSPIRED Word of God written by imperfect men. Basically it means �God breathed�. (2 Timothy 3.16) The Bible was written by human beings -men. Imperfect men who had the breath of God upon them. Men who were imperfect but yet were inspired. Any error in scripture is limited to the shortcomings of the vessel and not the message. Any such errors are limited and have no bearing on the ultimate message of the scriptures. The Scriptures are always right only in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God�s vision, God�s purposes, and God�s good news to humanity. The Bible�s message is directly inspired by God, and though he used human vessels to transport this message it remains accurate and trustworthy. However look at the Quran. Unlike the INSPIRED Bible - It is supposed to be the direct, absolute, literal, perfect WORD of God. But it has many problems and contradictions. The direct literal perfect WORD of GOD must not have problems and contradictions. Here are some examples- Contradictions � Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc. Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]? Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. Ridiculous � The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not. Sura 27:18-19 But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say. Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! Throwing Stars at the Devils? The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view. Sura 37.6-8 This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !? Dear 2Acts, ----------------------------------------- Here are some examples- Contradictions Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. ----------------------------------------- There�s no contradictions. Indeed surah 34:50 it like that, but the continuation of the verse "and if I got the hint, then it is due to what is revealed from my Lord. indeed He is Hearing, Most Near. " Such verse goes down when the companions of the Prophet always took the initiative to write down what was said by the Prophet, and he forbids to write other than what was ordered to be written. And verses to be written by them is only that which is revealed from God. Quran 53: 3-4 Then, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," He hinted to his companions that he was also a man who did not escape from doing wrong, as in a hadith narrated by Bukhari and Muslim: "All the descendants of Adam is guilty, and the best for those who guilty was who repent and not repeat mistakes." Apart from that, when he dies, his people do not worship him as God, as it has been done by the polytheists against Lata, Uzza, and Manat. ----------------------------- Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]? ---------------------------- The first Muslim is Adam. 02:37 � about: God provides a way to pray for the mistakes Adam, as mentioned in 07:23 02:127-133 about: Ya'kub descendants will worship only to the God of Abraham. 03:67 � about: Abraham is a muslim (muslim means one who surrender and submits to Allah) 06:14 � about: Muhammad is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam. 06:163 � (same with 06:14) 07:143 � about: Moses is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam like Abraham's religion. 26:51 � (same with 07:143) Explanation: Islam comes from the word "aslama" which means surrender or submission to Allah, and is derived from the word "salima" which means saved, thus says Islam can be defined that salvation from Allah. And the word Muslim is the subject or the person who runs the Islamic shariah. All the Apostles are surrender and worship only to one God. "Verily (this monotheism religion) is the religion of all of you, that is only one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al-Anbiya 21:92) Statement of the Apostles that they are the ones who surrendered to Allah, such as: Quran 02: 132, 10:72, 10:84, 21:25, 42:13 etc. ---------------------------------------- Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. --------------------------------------- What is mentioned in Surah 53: 1-18 and 81: 15-29 is that Muhammad saw Gabriel in the original form (not seeing God), that is in Sidratil Muntaha when it received the command about shalah 5 times a day and night, and when he was on earth. Then what is mentioned in Surah 6: 102-103 and 42:51 is indeed true that God can not be seen directly by the human eye sight. --------------------------------------- Ridiculous � The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not. Sura 27:18-19 But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say. Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! Throwing Stars at the Devils? The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view. Sura 37.6-8 ----------------------------------- There�s no ridiculous. What is referred to in Sura 27: 18-19 it is a real incident, because it is one of the miracles of the Prophet Solomon. Miracles is something extraordinary which no one is able to make it, because it is beyond human ability, therefore it can't be scientifically measured. What is referred to in Sura 18: 85-86 is that they see the sun set exactly vertically with a black muddy spring, and found a surrounding people who are not religious. Then, surah 37:6-8 �throwing stars at the devils.� Vision of the human eye is limited, whereas in this universe there are creatures that physically can be seen and some are not viewable (unseen), and it would be hard measured by science, and for a Muslim who was given the knowledge of the unseen (ghaib), they will believe it. Therefore the devils pelted with stars is a natural thing, because sometimes the earth is located between two devil horns. And that's one of the secrets of the dawn prayer (not all muslims know it). ------------------------- This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !? ------------------------------ I think quite the contrary, when the Quran was written, people didn't know the science, but the Quran has informed about science, and now one by one can be provable, for example: the sun has its own orbit, etc. Then, all the messengers of God was well-behaved, how will they be followed by their followers if they were behaved badly. Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of sahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an sahih hadith. Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following: "Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim) "Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari) "Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more. God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include: Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc. Regards, Asep Hi Asep Thank you for your explanations. Perhaps you are correct? Perhaps not? The fact is however, your explanations are not clear, they are complicated. Yet the Quran states that it is not complicated. The Quran is supposed to be clear! Surahs 11.1, 12.1, 27.1.41.3 and 57.9 state this. How can the clear and plain WORD of God be complicated? Looking closely at Soloman and the ants in Surah 27.18-19 if this is a miracle it is onlt that Soloman understands the speech of ants and animals. However it is a fact - ants and animals do not speak!. If they could I could believe it that Soloman could understand them. But ants and animals do not speak. So this story in the Quran is not a "miracle" it is just a childs fairy tale. Asep � is it impossible for the sun to sink into a muddy pond ! To say that stars are for throwing at the devils is just a fairy tale. Not even based on science. Ridiculous. Actually Asep, the account of Mohamad he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails" cannot be strongly opposed to the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari because it is from Sahih Bukhari ! -Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234: !

Dear 2Acts,

It is true that the Quran is not difficult to learn, through His Word in the Quran 54:17, but that makes you less obvious perhaps you only see the translation, if you understand the grammar of Arabic writing in the Quran, God willing, you will understand.
Quran 39:9
�Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding.�

I don't mean that ants and animals can speech, but the Prophet Solomon could hear the conversation of ants, and it is one of those miracle of Solomon from his God.

Miracles means something extraordinary which all beings do not have the power to make it because it is beyond their ability except Allah. Therefore, it can not be measured with science.
Quran 17:85
�And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."

Similarly, the miracles Jesus could raise the dead, it could not be measured with science.
Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of shahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an shahih hadith.
Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following:

"Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim)
"Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari)
"Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more.

God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include:
Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc.

Regards,
Asep

airmano wrote: Syed_z on 18:65 To start: The translation I trust the most is the word by word translation in Corpus Quran which leaves the interpetation to the reader. There the word "source/spring" and "mudd(y)" show up explicitly.      I guess you have found your translation of 18:65 on a Website like this.

You wouldn't say about just trusting one translation had you known the reality of Arabic Language. The classical Arabic Language is immensely rich and deep. The modern limited languages of today cannot explain each and every word of the Quran due to their being limited.

As for your 18:65 translation, I would like to admit that I was referring to Asad's Translation and it is one of those I referred to is because of the words  "it appeared to him" as that is a correct translation of the word Wajadaha in English (for English readers), as English did not even exist at the time of Prophet Muhammad. I did not take it from the website, I own a copy of Assad's translation.

airmano wrote: Looking at the individual translations therein you'll find that the vast majority translates it as something like "spring of muddy water". First, can you explain how you can logically identify/link the word "spring" in sea ?

My dear friend had you done some more research on Black Sea's water you would not be asking that question. You should know a fact about black sea which is unusual for a sea to have.

I had shared a link earlier on Black Sea which not only shows the sun as 'it appears' setting in it but also a couple of facts mentioned about it.

"Looking at this particular body of water at a map, one could almost mistake it as a lake. It's surrounded by land by all sides, making its main source of water the rivers, which pours in fresh water. It does, however, get its fair share of salt water through Bosphorous Strait, a one-kilometer-wide waterway connecting it to the Mediterranean Sea.

Arthur Capet, first author of the publication on the decline of oxygen in the Black Sea and researcher at MAST, explained that fresh water settles in the upper layers of the body of water without mixing with the denser salt water of the lower layers. Furthermore, permanent stratification keeps the deep waters of the Black Sea deprived of oxygen and marine life tends to develop above this imaginary line."

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/27989/20160902/oh-black-sea-losing-habitable-waters.htm

This Body of Water, is unlike other seas as its main sources are fresh water as compared to its source of salty waters. Its formation is very different causing it to appear darker than other bodies on a satellite.

This Hami'atin A'inin which is translated as "A spring" "Muddy" or a "Dark" "Turbid Sea" is basically to our understanding a body of water which is darker. Why is it? Because of high algae concentration which is also a fact about this sea unlike others. The word Hami'atin would not have been used had its water not been darker and would have been like other seas.

The lesson that Allah is trying to teach us is to look for a body of water which is darker and NOT whether it is a sea or a spring or a lake or water falls or etc etc. It so happens to be that it has been identified, throughout the history by many Islamic Scholars, with a body of water which in our times is called the Black Sea.

Another interesting thing to note is that Maududi translates the same Verse as: "he saw it setting in dark turbid waters"

Notice that he doesn't use the word 'Sea' or 'Spring'. Therefore Ai'nin does not only means 'Spring' or 'Sea' it also mean 'Water' 'A body of water'.

But why is Allah (swt) guided our scholars to identify it with Black Sea? What is the purpose of the story? Is it just to tell you a good bed time story? Is it just to teach you science? No, Obviously no. Its being done to help us identify the main agents of corruption called Gog and Magog, as they are one of the signs of the last days. This is not our discussion so we will leave it at that.

airmano wrote: Looking at the translations that get closer to your version: The Shakir translation goes: "down into a black sea", explicitly not "the black sea" (If Mohammed wanted to express so didn't the Black Sea have an (Arabic) name ? Al-Muntakhab says: "He took the lead in an expedition toward he west until he reached a body of water -said to be the Atlantic Ocean, or more likely a mirky land abounding in swamps" Again in stark contrast to your claim. Looking at the translation that comes closest to your claim we find Shabbir Ahmed: (Conquering land to the West toward Lydia, he reached as far as the Black Sea.) The sun was setting and it appeared to him as if it was setting in the dark waters. Looking at the wiki entry on Shabbir Ahmed we find that he started to learn Arabic in 1970, so a recent translation. Another one along this line is the translation from Muhammad Assad, who published his translation in 1980. So, besides the many "murky waters" there are only the two recent translations which may insinuate "Black Sea". It is however surprising that these translations always pop up (as the Quranic Miracles) when the error becomes obvious and can be seen worldwide.

Thats a good point you made. I appreciate your efforts in trying to show me what you think is correct. But I would like to help you in understanding as to why Shabbir identified as this body of water with Black Sea.

Let me correct you here, I have used Asad translation to explain you the words 'It Appeared to him' so you would understand that the Sun does not enter the sea. Asad in his Message of the Quran which is his official commentary on the Quran (on Surah Kahf) never identified this body of water with Black Sea. He just used the translation of Ai'nin as 'Sea' and not 'Spring' like others have and that is obviously due to richness of the Arabic language.

So why did Shabbir who appeared to study in 1970 identify it as Black Sea? The answer is given by Maulana Maududi in his Tafheem Ul Quran in the following words:

Ibn Jarir Tabari and Ibn Kathir have recorded the event, and Yaqut has mentioned it in his Mu jam-ul-Buldan that when after the conquest of Azerbaijan, Hadrat `Umar sent Suraqah bin `Amr, in 22 A.H. on an expedition to Derbent, Shehrbraz informed him that he had already gathered full information about the wall built by Zul-Qarnain, through a man, who could supply all the necessary details and then the man was actually presented before `Abdur Rehman. (Tabari, Vol. III, pp. 235-239; AI-Bidayah wan-Nihayah, Vol. VII, pp. 122-125, and Mu jam-ul-Buldan, under Bab-ul-Abwab: Derbent)


The fact of this matter is that the earliest Muslims had already identified through their spiritual insight (as they were much stronger in faith that Muslims of today) that cities like 'Derbent' meaning 'Closed Gates' (a city which still exists today) were iron walls made in openings of Caucuses Mountains which stretch between Black Sea and Capsian Sea. Such iron walls were made to prevent wild tribes of Europe from plundering and pillaging the lands south of Caucuses (like Iran, Middle East etc). Most definitely scholars like Shabbir had read the works of scholars of the past, just like Maududi did.

Therefore it is not correct to say that Hamia'tin Ai'nin came to be identified with a sea only recently.

airmano wrote: So, no, the Black Sea interpretation is the usual stretching of the Arabic Language combined with retrofitting the facts to the Quran. And even if it was the black sea: The sun still doesn't settle in it. Airmano

Look my friend, understanding the Quran based purely on scientific terms is not what the Quran was revealed for. Anyone who has that approach is mistaken. Quran is not a book of geology or science, it is a book of guidance. It just happens to be that many revelations in the Quran are in conformity with the modern scientific findings. 

Edited by syed_z - 08 December 2016 at 6:01pm