Is Jesus God?

syed_z wrote: Look my friend, understanding the Quran based purely on scientific terms is not what the Quran was revealed for.

That is not what I've heard your fellow Muslims say to me. They told me the science in the Quran confirms it is from Allah. You are back peddling for them.

syed_z wrote: Anyone who has that approach is mistaken. Quran is not a book of geology or science, it is a book of guidance.

Yes, but if it doesn't have science right, why should we trust it for guidance over the gospel we already have and trust?

syed_z wrote: It just happens to be that many revelations in the Quran are in conformity with the modern scientific findings.�

Like what? Did you mean that Allah reports a man went to where the sun sets, and he found it setting in murky water or the sun asking Allah for permission to rise again? Please show me the place where there are people and the sun sets in murky warm springs. Show me this, and I'll convert to Islam.

Edited by Saved - 09 December 2016 at 6:21am

syed_z wrote: Peace maker wrote: Sunan Abu Dawud 3991�Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. Muhammad literally said he found the setting of the sun in a spring muddy spring or hot water. The hadiths are accurate reports of Muhammad. My dear friend, I thank you for sharing the above hadith. Yes you are correct this hadith is in Sunan of Abu Dawud which is an authentic collection of Prophetic sayings.� But the question is that did the Prophet ended with the above words or is there a remaining part of this hadith? If there is a remaining part of the above tradition then where is it?The complete part of the above Hadith is actually in another authentic collection called Sahih Bukhari. It is the following:Narrated Abu Dhar (r.a)The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (down) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne (of Allah) and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted...."Since both narrations are reported by the same companion named Abu Dhar (r.a) the scholars agree that the hadith in Sahih Bukhari is a continuation of the hadith in Sunan of Abu Dawud. So what is the Prophet trying to teach us here? Is he teaching us astronomy? Only weak minded would say 'Yes'. But that's not what hes doing. The point being made is that Sun, which gives us day light without which we would be in darkness and unable to function properly, runs by the command of Allah (Bi idhnillah) and there is nothing that can change its course unless Allah (swt) Wills it. The Sun's 'Prostration' is a figure of speech of its obedience to Allah's command. The Throne of Allah (Arsh) is used as a mataphor also mentioned several times in the Quran implying His Power over the Universe. <!--[if gte mso 9]><> <o:OfficeSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeSettings> </><![endif]--> <p ="Msonormal">(7:54) Who created the sun, the moon and the stars, all of which are under His Command. <p ="Msonormal">At this point a question might come to our mind why is there a seeming contradiction appearing in following words of both Hadith: <p ="Msonormal">He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Abu Dawud) <p ="Msonormal">He said: It goes (down) till it prostrates itself (Bukhari) <p ="Msonormal">This apparent contradiction gets resolved as soon as we understand as to what was he (peace be upon him) trying to teach Abu Dhar (r.a). The point being made in both the hadith is that it does go down everyday which is an undeniable fact. <p ="Msonormal">Any one who genuinely seeks an answer to the apparent confusion would agree that the purpose of his discussion is inform his companion that every new day the major source of life i.e. Sun runs by the command of Allah. <p ="Msonormal">As for the sun, whether you look at it setting in the water or land, it is not going down in any one of them. When you look at the sun going down everyday do you believe that it goes inside the earth? <p ="Msonormal">It sets and it does because Allah wills, waiting to rise once again. <p ="Msonormal"> <p ="Msonormal">

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (down) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne (of Allah) and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted...."

Taking the above mentioned in Muhammad's prospective it was also not true and the wrong information he was wrongly informed the earth turns on it own axis from west to east aprox every 12 hrs the sun rise and set as a result of the earths rotation and not the sun rotating around the so this was the misinformation Muhammad gave his followers and not from Allah.
The sun is always shinning and its not going down under Allah's throne then the universe will be pitch dark and it will dark on both sides of the earth and you won't be able to see the moon at night also Muhammad made up his own comments which was not true.


Edited by Peace maker - 09 December 2016 at 10:34am

syed_z wrote: Peace maker wrote: Sunan Abu Dawud 3991�Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. Muhammad literally said he found the setting of the sun in a spring muddy spring or hot water. The hadiths are accurate reports of Muhammad. My dear friend, I thank you for sharing the above hadith. Yes you are correct this hadith is in Sunan of Abu Dawud which is an authentic collection of Prophetic sayings.� But the question is that did the Prophet ended with the above words or is there a remaining part of this hadith? If there is a remaining part of the above tradition then where is it?The complete part of the above Hadith is actually in another authentic collection called Sahih Bukhari. It is the following:Narrated Abu Dhar (r.a)The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (down) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne (of Allah) and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted...."Since both narrations are reported by the same companion named Abu Dhar (r.a) the scholars agree that the hadith in Sahih Bukhari is a continuation of the hadith in Sunan of Abu Dawud. So what is the Prophet trying to teach us here? Is he teaching us astronomy? Only weak minded would say 'Yes'. But that's not what hes doing. The point being made is that Sun, which gives us day light without which we would be in darkness and unable to function properly, runs by the command of Allah (Bi idhnillah) and there is nothing that can change its course unless Allah (swt) Wills it. The Sun's 'Prostration' is a figure of speech of its obedience to Allah's command. The Throne of Allah (Arsh) is used as a mataphor also mentioned several times in the Quran implying His Power over the Universe. <!--[if gte mso 9]><> <o:OfficeSettings> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeSettings> </><![endif]--> <p ="Msonormal">(7:54) Who created the sun, the moon and the stars, all of which are under His Command. <p ="Msonormal">At this point a question might come to our mind why is there a seeming contradiction appearing in following words of both Hadith: <p ="Msonormal">He said: It sets in a spring of warm water. (Abu Dawud) <p ="Msonormal">He said: It goes (down) till it prostrates itself (Bukhari) <p ="Msonormal">This apparent contradiction gets resolved as soon as we understand as to what was he (peace be upon him) trying to teach Abu Dhar (r.a). The point being made in both the hadith is that it does go down everyday which is an undeniable fact. <p ="Msonormal">Any one who genuinely seeks an answer to the apparent confusion would agree that the purpose of his discussion is inform his companion that every new day the major source of life i.e. Sun runs by the command of Allah. <p ="Msonormal">As for the sun, whether you look at it setting in the water or land, it is not going down in any one of them. When you look at the sun going down everyday do you believe that it goes inside the earth? <p ="Msonormal">It sets and it does because Allah wills, waiting to rise once again. <p ="Msonormal"> <p ="Msonormal">

Yes, but Allah is the one who said the man went to where the sun sets and there were people there. This is an actual place. Allah reports he found it setting in warm muddy water. According to Allah the Quran is clear and he said what he meant and meant what he said.

In the Hadith, Muhammad is asking a specific question about the sun scientifically speaking and Muhammad answers his own question, because the man not knowing the answer refused to respond to the question.

It seems you are having to jump through a lot of semantic hoops to solve this problem. It doesn't really satisfy my investigation on truth. One can easily argue that the sun after setting in murky water can ask Allah for permission to rise. But we all know the sun is on its own predestined course and time and doesn't need to ask Allah for any permission to do what God already commanded it to do at creation.

This is, of course, only the tip of the iceberg of questions; for instance, there is Allah's implied views of the Christian trinity such as it being the son, mother and father. Why did Allah question Jesus about him and his mother being two gods with Allah being the third of the three. There was never such a trinity as the son, mother and father.
PBUY,
Saved

Edited by Saved - 10 December 2016 at 1:08pm

asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: 2Acts wrote: asep48garut60 wrote: Dear Saved, I didn�t say �God may have sons by the tons as you mentioned�, I even deny that God has a son, even me explain to you what is stated in John 5:27 that there is the same understanding with the statement in the Quran 4: 171, Koran 5: 116-120 that Jesus is the son of man, not a son of God. You said �Theses titles concerning Jesus need to be looked at in the context of all the gospel. You cannot take one phrase and created a doctrine. � Therefore, I've read the contents of some of the Gospels, and I found a lot of contents aren't equal between one to another. do I need to prove? Regards, Asep Yes. You need to prove ! Dear 2Acts, Here are some evidence that I read: 1. Which one is true, 8 years or 18 years? "Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and three months and ten days he reigned in Jerusalem. He did evil in the sight of God. "(The Book of 2 Chronicles 36:9) "Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he became king, and he reigned three months in Jerusalem. His mother's name Nehusta bint Elnathan, from Jerusalem. "(The Book of 2 Kings 24:8) 2. Which one is right, God or the Devil? "Rise wrath of God against Israel; He incited David against them, He say, 'Go, count the people of Israel and Judah.' "(The Book of 2 Samuel 24:1) "Devil stood up against the people of Israel, and persuaded David to number Israel." (The Book of 1 Chronicles 21:1) 3. Verse unreasonable "And Shem and Japhet took a garment, and put on their shoulders, and walked retreat to the back and cover up his father naked and their faces turned their father in order not to see the body of their father were nude. And Noah awoke from hangover, he know what has been done by his two sons ". (Genesis 9: 23-24) Does God send Noah (a prophet) behaves like that? Could this fraud committed Jews to mislead the Christians? And many others. Regards, Asep Hi Asep The contradictions are easily explained. The Bible and Quran make different claims about them selves. The Bible is more like your hadith. It does not claim to be some kind of absolute literal WORD straight from God. Instead it claims to be the INSPIRED Word of God written by imperfect men. Basically it means �God breathed�. (2 Timothy 3.16) The Bible was written by human beings -men. Imperfect men who had the breath of God upon them. Men who were imperfect but yet were inspired. Any error in scripture is limited to the shortcomings of the vessel and not the message. Any such errors are limited and have no bearing on the ultimate message of the scriptures. The Scriptures are always right only in fulfilling their primary purpose: revealing God, God�s vision, God�s purposes, and God�s good news to humanity. The Bible�s message is directly inspired by God, and though he used human vessels to transport this message it remains accurate and trustworthy. However look at the Quran. Unlike the INSPIRED Bible - It is supposed to be the direct, absolute, literal, perfect WORD of God. But it has many problems and contradictions. The direct literal perfect WORD of GOD must not have problems and contradictions. Here are some examples- Contradictions � Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc. Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]? Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. Ridiculous � The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not. Sura 27:18-19 But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say. Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! Throwing Stars at the Devils? The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view. Sura 37.6-8 This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !? Dear 2Acts, ----------------------------------------- Here are some examples- Contradictions Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses. ----------------------------------------- There�s no contradictions. Indeed surah 34:50 it like that, but the continuation of the verse "and if I got the hint, then it is due to what is revealed from my Lord. indeed He is Hearing, Most Near. " Such verse goes down when the companions of the Prophet always took the initiative to write down what was said by the Prophet, and he forbids to write other than what was ordered to be written. And verses to be written by them is only that which is revealed from God. Quran 53: 3-4 Then, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," He hinted to his companions that he was also a man who did not escape from doing wrong, as in a hadith narrated by Bukhari and Muslim: "All the descendants of Adam is guilty, and the best for those who guilty was who repent and not repeat mistakes." Apart from that, when he dies, his people do not worship him as God, as it has been done by the polytheists against Lata, Uzza, and Manat. ----------------------------- Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]? ---------------------------- The first Muslim is Adam. 02:37 � about: God provides a way to pray for the mistakes Adam, as mentioned in 07:23 02:127-133 about: Ya'kub descendants will worship only to the God of Abraham. 03:67 � about: Abraham is a muslim (muslim means one who surrender and submits to Allah) 06:14 � about: Muhammad is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam. 06:163 � (same with 06:14) 07:143 � about: Moses is the first Muslim in his environment, at the time no one was embrace Islam like Abraham's religion. 26:51 � (same with 07:143) Explanation: Islam comes from the word "aslama" which means surrender or submission to Allah, and is derived from the word "salima" which means saved, thus says Islam can be defined that salvation from Allah. And the word Muslim is the subject or the person who runs the Islamic shariah. All the Apostles are surrender and worship only to one God. "Verily (this monotheism religion) is the religion of all of you, that is only one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al-Anbiya 21:92) Statement of the Apostles that they are the ones who surrendered to Allah, such as: Quran 02: 132, 10:72, 10:84, 21:25, 42:13 etc. ---------------------------------------- Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51]. --------------------------------------- What is mentioned in Surah 53: 1-18 and 81: 15-29 is that Muhammad saw Gabriel in the original form (not seeing God), that is in Sidratil Muntaha when it received the command about shalah 5 times a day and night, and when he was on earth. Then what is mentioned in Surah 6: 102-103 and 42:51 is indeed true that God can not be seen directly by the human eye sight. --------------------------------------- Ridiculous � The Quran says Soloman spoke with ants. O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not. Sura 27:18-19 But ants do not communicate in a sophisticated manner as to say. Sura 18:85-86 reveals that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. This is ridiculous! Throwing Stars at the Devils? The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly coucil? Not exactly a "scientific" world view. Sura 37.6-8 ----------------------------------- There�s no ridiculous. What is referred to in Sura 27: 18-19 it is a real incident, because it is one of the miracles of the Prophet Solomon. Miracles is something extraordinary which no one is able to make it, because it is beyond human ability, therefore it can't be scientifically measured. What is referred to in Sura 18: 85-86 is that they see the sun set exactly vertically with a black muddy spring, and found a surrounding people who are not religious. Then, surah 37:6-8 �throwing stars at the devils.� Vision of the human eye is limited, whereas in this universe there are creatures that physically can be seen and some are not viewable (unseen), and it would be hard measured by science, and for a Muslim who was given the knowledge of the unseen (ghaib), they will believe it. Therefore the devils pelted with stars is a natural thing, because sometimes the earth is located between two devil horns. And that's one of the secrets of the dawn prayer (not all muslims know it). ------------------------- This is all just ridiculous and an example of how the writer of the Quran did not understand the facts of science. Regarding the behaviour of Noah. Do I think a prophet should behave like that ? Perhaps. Noah was just a man. Nothing more. He was not perfect. What about Mohamad. He ordered his men to piece his enemies eyes with hot nails ! (Sahih Bukhari). Is that how a prophet should behave !? ------------------------------ I think quite the contrary, when the Quran was written, people didn't know the science, but the Quran has informed about science, and now one by one can be provable, for example: the sun has its own orbit, etc. Then, all the messengers of God was well-behaved, how will they be followed by their followers if they were behaved badly. Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of sahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an sahih hadith. Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following: "Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim) "Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari) "Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more. God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include: Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc. Regards, Asep Hi Asep Thank you for your explanations. Perhaps you are correct? Perhaps not? The fact is however, your explanations are not clear, they are complicated. Yet the Quran states that it is not complicated. The Quran is supposed to be clear! Surahs 11.1, 12.1, 27.1.41.3 and 57.9 state this. How can the clear and plain WORD of God be complicated? Looking closely at Soloman and the ants in Surah 27.18-19 if this is a miracle it is onlt that Soloman understands the speech of ants and animals. However it is a fact - ants and animals do not speak!. If they could I could believe it that Soloman could understand them. But ants and animals do not speak. So this story in the Quran is not a "miracle" it is just a childs fairy tale. Asep � is it impossible for the sun to sink into a muddy pond ! To say that stars are for throwing at the devils is just a fairy tale. Not even based on science. Ridiculous. Actually Asep, the account of Mohamad he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails" cannot be strongly opposed to the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari because it is from Sahih Bukhari ! -Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234: ! Dear 2Acts, It is true that the Quran is not difficult to learn, through His Word in the Quran 54:17, but that makes you less obvious perhaps you only see the translation, if you understand the grammar of Arabic writing in the Quran, God willing, you will understand. Quran 39:9 �Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only they will remember [who are] people of understanding.� I don't mean that ants and animals can speech, but the Prophet Solomon could hear the conversation of ants, and it is one of those miracle of Solomon from his God. Miracles means something extraordinary which all beings do not have the power to make it because it is beyond their ability except Allah. Therefore, it can not be measured with science. Quran 17:85 �And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little." Similarly, the miracles Jesus could raise the dead, it could not be measured with science. Nowadays a lot of scattered hadiths with the name of shahih hadith. I've explained in this forum about how to determine that it's an shahih hadith. Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails", is strongly opposed to the hadiths of the following: "Actually I was sent to perfect the noble character." (Sahih Muslim) "Love the people as you love yourself." (Sahih Bukhari) "Whoever does not love his fellow man, he/she will not be loved by God." (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim). And much more. God's statement regarding the character of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran include: Surah 68: 4, 33:21, 16: 127, 3: 159 etc. Regards, Asep

Hi Asep
I don�t believe you that the Quran is not difficult to learn. Most Muslims cannot even read or understand classical Arabic, so how can it not be difficult to learn. Most Muslims just memorise the Arabic Quran like parrots without even knowing what it means. Why would God only use Arabic for his Word? To only understand it in one language proves to me it cannot be the Word of God. How clumsy!
I provided you with five expert translations. The translations are clear.
I don not believe Soloman could hear the conversation of ants � because ants do not have conversation. Ants do not say � �lest Sulayman and his armies should crush you, while they perceive not.�
Miracles are where God uses nature in a super natural way. Ants do not have conversations. So God could not provide a miracle for Soloman to understand ant language � because ant language does not exist.
Actually the miracles of Jesus make more sense than the �miracles� in the Quran because they show God super naturally using nature. The Quran �miracles do not do this� you cannot compare Soloman and the ants with Jesus because people do die � so for Jesus to rasies them from the dead makes sense. However ants do not talk. So for Soloman to understand themdoes not make sense.
Asep. The Hadith which states that "he ordered his men to pieces his enemies eyes with hot nails" is reliable Sahihhadith. It is Sahih Bukhari !
Also can you please tell me where in Sahih Bukhari it says �love people as yourself� I knowit says this in the Bible. Where is it in Sahih Bukhari ?