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Logic: Allah�s Omniscience & Omnipotence

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Whisper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:38pm

Brother Skswsdom absolutely great post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 2:49pm
If Allah is omniscient then presumably he knew
when he created the world that I, howard, was going
to remain a non-Muslim and that I would be
punished in hell for my disbelief in his 'signs'. So
why did he let me be born?

Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the
result of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't
omniscient.

Presumably when Allah created human beings he
knew that even 1400 years after His final revelation
to mankind, that over 80% of mankind would still
continue not to recognise his 'clear signs'. If Allah did
not want such a situation to occur then presumably,
through his omnipotence, he could have prevented it.
But why did Allah create beings with a free will in the
first place when he could have chosen otherwise? In
fact why did Allah create human beings at all?

Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the
results of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't
omniscient.

But why does Allah want to'test' beings that he
himself created? It wasn't I, howard, who asked Allah
to create me and other human beings. If Allah
decided to create beings with free will then it is Allah
himself who is responsible if those beings go
astray. It's the creator's fault, not the creation's.

Edited by howard
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Skswsdom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skswsdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Whisper Whisper wrote:

Brother Skswsdom absolutely great post.

Alhamdullilah hira bil Alamiin wa Shukran



Edited by Skswsdom
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:19pm

Originally posted by howard howard wrote:

If Allah is omniscient then presumably he knew
when he created the world that I, howard, was going
to remain a non-Muslim and that I would be
punished in hell for my disbelief in his 'signs'.

He knew what you would choose before your last moment on earth. Yes.

Quote

 So
why did he let me be born?

Perhaps you might ask Him after you die. Afterall, that sounds like a personal question between yourself and your maker.

Quote
Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the
result of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't
omniscient.

a "test" is not a "reason" for your birth, but your life is part of a "test". And yes, He knows what YOU will choose.  

Quote
Presumably when Allah created human beings he
knew that even 1400 years after His final revelation
to mankind, that over 80% of mankind would still
continue not to recognise his 'clear signs'. If Allah did
not want such a situation to occur then presumably,
through his omnipotence, he could have prevented it.
But why did Allah create beings with a free will in the
first place when he could have chosen otherwise? In
fact why did Allah create human beings at all?

The WILL of Allah is not the same nor is it "equivalent" to the "desire" or "pleasure" of Allah. Two very different concepts. Your "choosing" to not believe is YOUR choice, given to you by His will, but "His Will" does not always equate to "His desire to force you to choose one way or the other". There are cases where Allah has closed a person's ability to see or hear or understand as part of a punishment brought about by a person's "choice" to rebel or act against believers. 

Quote
Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the
results of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't
omniscient.

He knew what a person would eventually believe as far as Gd and religion and everything else.

Quote
But why does Allah want to'test' beings that he
himself created? It wasn't I, howard, who asked Allah
to create me and other human beings. If Allah
decided to create beings with free will then it is Allah
himself who is responsible if those beings go
astray. It's the creator's fault, not the creation's.

 

You are trying to brush the entire thread with "test", which is actually a bit ambiguous in your usage. Please clarify.

Allah creating your "will", does not mean He forced you into deciding. He created your decision, and He knows what you will decide, which is not the same as "will = pleasure or force". The specific mechanics of how Allah "hears", or "knows", or "creates", or "wills" is beyond man's cognitive abilities, and as a Muslim it is obligatory to believe, and an innovation to try and "figure out", and disbelief to denounce. Humankind accepts things at face value without being able to explain the mechanics of the process, such as "cause and effect". We all accept it, although it is not founded on any rational bases and the mechanics are beyond our abilities.

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Skswsdom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skswsdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:42pm

Originally posted by howard howard wrote:



Ah yes, as a 'test'. But he already knew what the
result of the 'test' would be. If he didn't then he isn't
omniscient. 

It's the creator's fault, not the creation's.

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful �

 

� �The Arabic word Islam means submission and obedience to the will of God. It derives from the Arabic word Salaam which means Peace. The religion of Islam is the complete acceptance of the teachings and guidance of God as revealed to His Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon him). A Muslim is one who believes in God and strives for total reorganization of his life according to God�s revealed guidance and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. On this basis, A Muslim works towards building a just and moral society. Islam is a religion with an emphasis more in the development of universal ideals, not so much in the way of personality, such as Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism or other religions whose names derive from their initiators ��  From an article Islam at a Glance, author unknown

 

A Salaamu Alaykum Howard,

 

As the article suggests, a Muslim�s concern is with the nature of man, not the nature of God. It is our duty as Muslims, our responsibility as agents of vice-regency and our privilege as servants to a higher ideal that we strive daily to fulfill that purpose. It is anathema for a Muslim to wonder �Why was I created � Why am I here?� when there exists so much else to do. Whether we do it or not is another matter entirely. If you would call this a test, so be it. Regardless, Allah does indeed know all, but we his creation do not. I have no idea if you, I or any of us are destined for Heaven or hell. That�s not the point. The point is in the struggle, the work towards the endeavor of worthiness, not in the eyes of God but in each others eyes.

 

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar (RA): Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him)  said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim. So he should neither oppress him nor hand him over to an oppressor. And whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs."  (Book #85, Hadith #83)

 

Narrated Abu Hurairah (RA): Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said : "Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the greatest falsehood. Do not try to find fault with each other, do not spy on one another, do not vie with one another, do not envy one another, do not be angry with one another, do not turn away from one another, and be servants of Allah, brothers to one another, as you have been enjoined. A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim, he does him no wrong, nor does he let him down, nor does he despise him. Fear of God is here, fear of God is here and he pointed to his chest. It is evil enough that a Muslim should look down on his brother. For every Muslim is sacred to one another: his blood, his honour, and his property. Allah does not look at your bodies or your forms, or your deeds, but He looks at your hearts". ( Bukhari, Muslim )

 

Narrated Anas (RA) Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him)  said: "By Him in whose hand is my soul, a servant (of Allah) does not believe (truly) until he likes for his brother what he likes for himself ". ( Bukhari, Muslim )

 

The above are three hadiths, sayings or traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace_be_upon_him). Are they not worthy of introspection? Do they not inspire towards more pertinent endeavors? Do they not focus our capacity towards the plight of each other? This is the Muslim perspective brother Howard. This is what we call Al-Deen � The Life.

 

I welcome you with the traditional Islamic greeting of A Salaamu Alaykum or Peace be with you. This is how Muslims greet each other. What is a Muslim? According to Islamic belief a Muslim is an adherent of Islam. Literally, the word means submissive to God. Ponder this �What isn�t submissive to God? ;) Logic would suggest that at this time that one would use the castigating argument �� but I have free will; I, therefor do not submit.� I would postulate the following: Free will is the result of predestination, if you believe in God. Free will is the momentum and result of one�s actions if one believes in one�s self alone. Whatever the motivation, there exist consequences for those actions whether they conform or conflict with the desires of God and man. Yet the consequences of one�s actions does not consume the believer if their cause is sound, moral and true in the beneficial spirit of advancing the social order. To those who aspire to a higher ideal, to those who hold themselves to a higher standard, whose purpose is given to the pursuit of a just society as a whole, who see humanity as the striving towards a harmonious unity of that social order, their lives are lived with the understanding that with patience, perseverance and personal sacrifice the effort is worth it.

 

The effort is worth it.

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Skswsdom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skswsdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 October 2005 at 9:46pm

Andulus Wrote:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

Salaamu Alaykum brother Andulus,

Thank you for this quote. I collect them. I am indebted to you for this. :)

JazakAllah Kahirun wa ramadan mubarak.



Edited by Skswsdom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 October 2005 at 8:54am
Originally posted by Skswsdom Skswsdom wrote:

Andulus Wrote:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -Aristotle

Salaamu Alaykum brother Andulus,

Thank you for this quote. I collect them. I am indebted to you for this. :)

JazakAllah Kahirun wa ramadan mubarak.

 

wa aleikum assalam br, and Ramadan mubarak!

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mouhssine4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 October 2005 at 7:18pm

salam everybody

somebody asked this: why did Allah create human beings at all?

simply to worship Him.

if you want to do it, you will be rewarded here and later too

if you do not you will be punished.

Prophet are send to warn people and guide them not to force them to worship.

here is hwo some people see things

suppose you are in a dark room and in this dark room there is a small light bulb, you are asked to look for a key, that key will help you get out of the dark room.

what will a wise person do ? he or she will start looking in the area that is covered by the light bulb,(always start with the easy than move to the hard, right) the uliminated area, if he or she does not find the key he or she will look in the area that is dark, obscure, not explained yet.

you guys are asking question s about how God sits, speaks, test, know, that is all part of the unseen, and you know that, if your aim is beleiving in some higher power, i guess your questioning is proof that you are against a much higher power than yourself, but if you are trying to raise questions to shake others beleives, just read the holly coran, other groupes had asked similar question to other prophets and most prophet answerd something like this: I am here to warn you and guide you, just take it or leave it.

if you want to really take it, read the holly coran, or youssuf ali translations. your heart and your convictions will get you there.

salam



Edited by mouhssine4
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