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Evolution of Religion

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2005 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by AhmedNagi AhmedNagi wrote:

How can I be abusing the phrase 'this is God's will' when there are direct hadeeths and verses in the quran stating that these punishments are decreed by God?

I never said 'you' do. I said "how many people abuse that phrase".

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amlhabibi2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2005 at 7:24pm

 

 

Salam Alaikoam

Allah did not create us to cause others pain or injury!

Cutting off a Limb, except for medical reasons is not solving the issues of Poverty, Violence, Ignorance or Apathy!

Stoning people does not address the issues of accessible public education in the implications and hazards of being human, practicing partical or total abstance and how it can affect a persons ability to be rational and not cave in to primitive urges.

Whipping people does nothing to address the same issues as above and Sexual Health Education, How to establish Healthy Relationship Education as well as Good Communications Skills and open lines of communication between families, community and the Nation will assist people in rising to the dignity Allah created in them when He Breathed in of His Spirit in them at Our Creation.

In this day there is no excuse for violence when there are other more positive, caring, considerate and empowering ways to turn someone life around and encourage them to have more positive behavior.

We are Messengers of Allah, in ten thousand years what will the Message of your life be?

Mahssallah may each of us be guided well towards being the best person we can be and on our journey set an example by setting an example like doing living prayers....

 

Living Prayers may be some of the following....

1. Caring with excellence for the disabled and less fortunate.

2. Getting Education or training so we can provide for ourselves and our families.

3. Setting up Schools and training facilities that are affordable, accessible for everyone around the world!

4. Provide emmediate Sexual Education in how to deal with partial or total abstance in a caring manner and positive intervention Centers for people feeling like they are losing their self control.

5. Public education in anger management

6. Public Education in how to develop and create Healthy, Positive and Productive Relationships

7. Debreifing Centers of Critical incidents where people can go for Counseling, consultations to resolve their anger, hate, dispair, frustration

8. We are the Messiah, the Prophets, the Manifestations of God, the People of Spirit.... it is up to each of us to make a positive difference in the world.

Salam

I believe in you, that even if you feel you are the worst of Mankind there is Hope for a change of Heart within you and that you can learn new and better ways of coping with the Tests Allah sends your way, you were created to be the Voice of Allah, God, The Creator may you find in this voice that true justice is Education, Counseling, Consultation and Doing Living Prayers as well as making a personal Hajj (Pilgrimage) to your life, your families, community, nation and world and see where you need assistance with a challenge and where you can be opf service or assistance in good, positive and caring ways that do not include violence or abuse of any kind.

Inshallah may they in ten thousand years say you may have been a trouble person and the wonderful thing is you turned your life around and you assisted with developing Peace within yourself and others and the World.

Inshallah may you be as Optimistic and Hopeful for yourself as I and the world are for you!

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

 

 

Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Skswsdom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2005 at 9:51pm

In the Name of Allah, The Most Gracious, The Most Merciful ...

 

Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle recited the Verse: -- "It is He who has sent down to you the Book. In it are Verses that are entirely clear; they are the foundation of the Book, others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the Truth), follow thereof that is not entirely clear seeking affliction and searching for its hidden meanings; but no one knows its hidden meanings but Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it (i.e. in the Qur'an) the whole of it (i.e. its clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding." (3.7) Then Allah's Apostle said, "If you see those who follow thereof that is not entirely clear, then they are those whom Allah has named [as having deviation (from the Truth)] 'So beware of them."  (Book #60, Hadith Bukhari #70)

 

Salaamu Alaykum,

 

I love your resolve, your passion, your zeal. It�s refreshing to see not unlike the same vigor exhibited by my brothers in the nation of Islam. Regrettably much the same sort of invalid rationale. There is evidence, however, of each of your points 1 through 7 in Islamic centers and countries around the world. There are efforts towards the positive all over the globe: I�ve witnessed it myself in England and France, in Syria, in Jordan and many places the world over. I currently reside in the United States and a few (too few) of my endeavors are those of which you espouse, Allah grant you and I the time to do more. Your enthusiasm towards the realization of positive action is admirable; unfortunately it is the soul of innocence and naivet� to believe that every individual will share in this demonstration of evolved accomplishment.

 

This is why hell exists.

 

Atrocities are committed the world over unremittingly, a continuous barrage of evil on a scale unimagined save by Allah Subhana wa T�Ala. By Allah�s Will, for Allah�s Sake and with Allah�s Blessing and Decree, The Almighty�s Infinite Wisdom has graced us with remedial tools to contest these acts of malevolence: the Law of God. This is a mercy for those of us who follow Siratul Mustaqeem, The Straight Path, The Path of Righteousness. It may appear abhorrent, yet those with a desire towards submission in lieu of personal aversion will realize these tools for the mercy they are. Brother AhmedNagi stated it best when he touched upon a few of these points briefly. I would only add that there are people that would and are tempted towards something far worse because they are without a definitive demonstration of consequences: I live in a country where day by day there exists a constant stream of images and depictions both graphic and obscene, and am informed that this is right and good and proper. I live in a country where iniquity is exhibited as commonplace, greed and excess are seen as achievement and dedication to the advancement of the community is oftentimes forfeit to the catering of gratification for the individual.

 

I live in the United States. I live in a country where if you have enough money, there are no consequences.

 

Consequences are the heart and soul of your argument, or rather the equal implementation there of. Consequences, by and large, are not cruel to those who seek to either respect them or avoid them. Consequences serve a higher purpose; they are the boundaries upon which we, as members of a community, as participants in a progressing and progressive society, accept as the willing sacrifice to coexist peacefully. The consequences listed are harsh, true; yet ideally they are measures implemented only after all other options are exhausted: Amputation, for example, is only given after a third offense, upon the conclusion of appeals and after it has been thoroughly demonstrated that the offender is sane, habitual and irredeemable and did not commit the crime of theft by necessity i.e. the theft was for the purpose of preventing starvation, eviction or any other hardship; Stoning is likewise the given punishment after the crime of adultery has been either confessed or proven � (the method of proving adultery is quite � convoluted). But of course, as shown in the following Hadith, Allah Subhana wa T�Ala is merciful �

 

Narrated Abu Dhar: Allah's Apostle said, "Someone came to me from my Lord and gave me the news (or good tidings) that if any of my followers dies worshipping none (in any way) along with Allah, he will enter Paradise." I asked, "Even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse (adultery) and theft?" He replied, "Even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse (adultery) and theft."  (Book #23, Hadith Bukhari #329)

 

Of course, the above situations deal with an ideal world. Life, unfortunately, isn�t ideal. Life has issues, problems and concerns that plague us all, test our resolve, our patience, our souls. For those of us with a will to strive towards the ideal, to persevere in the face of adversity, to struggle towards submission � we can deal with it. The remedy lies in submission to that higher aspiration and inspiration which is God�s Will. The remedy lies in the practice of patience and the understanding that eventually comes. I tell you this last as a reminder to myself by way of reminding you �

 

The remedy lies in God�s Hands � That�s faith � J



Edited by Skswsdom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amlhabibi2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 November 2005 at 10:33pm

 

Alaikoam Salam

Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

I realize my view of Islam is not shared by some people, however I am hoping that as people read, understand, comprehend and share and consult on the imformation I have presented here and on my websites that they will see that I love Islam and I love Life.

I am hoping they will see that I believe in the good in them and that investing education, training in this good will encourage a greater spirit of good all round in themselves and the world.

That even the ones we deem Monsters can be reeducated towards being a better person and that there is hope for redemption and ressurrection in them too for when Allah, God, The Creator Breathed of His Spirit in them His goal was to Create His Agent in this world to be gaurdian of themselves, others and the world and do good things, say good things, believe good things and assist with participating in the Greatest Wonder of the World an end to Poverty, Violence and Ignorance with World Arising Responsibly and Spiritually.

We and the World are worth the effort!

Inshallah there will be a redoubling of people sorting into groups to learn new ways of being that are more caring, peaceful and democratic.  Surah 99, 1-8

We are the Hope of the world may we all educate ourselves in trades, proffessions and how to cope with the wide range of emotions, feelings and impulses we are tested with just Like Adam and Eve in the Graden, Moses on the Mountain, Jesus in the Desert, Mohammed PBUH in the Caves and Buddha under the Bodhi Tree in Our Daily Lives.

Let the Surah of your Life be one filled with positive endeavors at personal growth, education, training and supporting less fortunate people in their challenges as well as being a leader in your own right.

May Allah Bless each of us abundantly with Insight and the confidence to ask questions and seek knowldge even when we feel like whats the point.

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi



Edited by amlhabibi2000
Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmedNagi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2005 at 5:47am

Al Salamu alaykum Wa Rahamatu Allahi Wa Barakatuh

Dear Sister,

   I understand your thoughts and beliefs to a large extent, but I guess I am failing to drive my point through.

   Consultation, education, and training are great. But the big question remains: how is that fair to the victims of crime when their violators go unpunished? Where is justice there? And I don't know how I can elaborate this point more, but these violators have been warned about the consequences of what they have done. To some people, counseling is good and helpful, but when they see an opprotunity to add to their wealth by stealing, which is alot easier than having to work, the counseling basically goes out of the window. Again, I ask, how long does counseling take and how many crimes can a person commit before conselling fully succeeds with their cases (if it ever does)? I understand your point about amputation having to be only used for medical purposes. The question I ask is what facts is this opinion based on? The issue is a very relative one. One person might find it very harsh to lock a thief up while the other might see a thief deserving capital punishment. Who can measure the weight of a crime with extreme fairness in order to be able to decide a just reaction to it? Bear in mind that in measuring the extremity of a crime, one has to know the consequences of every such crime in mankind's history to be able to come up with the right reaction that will keep it at a minimum and serve justice to all. To do that, one needs perfect knowledge. A turning leaf on one side of the world can cause a hurricane on the other side. I beleive that no one can be able to take up such a job except Allah.

   Allah sees us all as being equal except through our deeds. And it is his will that we carry out justice with the ill doers in the community; partly to force them to quit the crime they are doing and partly to deliver justice to the victims. When that is done, we have to treat the punished violators with compassion and love because they have paid their dues.

   I emphasize that none is endowed with enough wisdom to improve on Allah's rulings. We sometimes have to take actions we hate because they are right. And by 'right' I mean not what we would wish the case would be, but what is most beneficial to all mankind. Not only is counseling alone unjust to the victims who have been harmed, but it is also unjust to every person that has to pay for it through taxes when this person needs the money to feed his/her children. Bear in mind that these punishments (as brother Skswsdom has previously mentioned) are not to be carried out on the people who have commited these crimes out of necessity. They are to be carried out against people who commit these crimes when they could have been avoided. So it can be very unjust to handle criminals by making a poor man pay for their counseling for a crime commited to satisfy a whim or greed for something unnecessary.

   I would also like to mention that studies have concluded that poverty can be abolished if all the wealthy people of the world paid 1% of their wealth annually to the needy. This is very close to the Zakat fareeda which is 2.5%. So the world does not need counselling and training to abolish poverty. It needs people who will follow the will of God without questioning.

   Counseling is good but is not enough. We can use counseling along with carrying out justice, but that does not negate the necessity of justice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amlhabibi2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2005 at 8:05am

 

Salam Alaikoam Brother

I understand what you are saying about capital punishment however I believe that given the education, training and community support a person can become a better person and if there is any kind of punsihment it may be a period of retreat to accept responsibility for themselves, their lives and how they can make amends in a positive and productive way.

I would suggest that the major of people being violent, agressive, ignorant or apathitic is due to a lack of education, spiritual guidance and personal accountablitiy and a lack of community spirit and not understanding or having all their options known or available as well as open lines of communication or safe debriefing places of critical incedents as well as education in sexual health education and the affects on our minds and bodies of partial and total abstance and how to deal with these emotions and impulses in positive ways and manners.

Brother we are not born Monsters and there are many factors in our choosing the paths that we choose and we need recognize some practices ie, total abstance or partial abstance along with not enough understanding or knowledge in how to have a healthy relationship with ourselves, others and the world and especially with our marriage partner and children.

As we are both aware many people come from homes or back grounds where there was family violence, sibling violence, incest, unhealthy relationships, sexual abuse, drug abuse, alchol abuse, emotional abuse whether in our home, community and to rise above that mess we need excellent guidance and education that does not perpetuate violence or agressive abusive behavior in any manner.

There is hope and we are that hope.

I for the most part have been mostly positive in my attitude however ignorance caused me to become a Monster for a period of time and accepting this was the hardest and most devasting and empowering thing I have ever done.

The hardest part was accepting that I had errored in my judgement and that I needed help to resolve my parenting and relationship challenges.  Devastating because the one thing I wanted in all the World was to be the Best Wife and Mother.  Empowering because as I began to draw on Community Infra structures and support services and learn better ways of coping and handling challenges it assisted me with finsding my voice of kindness again and stop being angry at everyone and the world and blaming others for all my challenges and problems. 

The reason I believe there is hope for redemption and forgiveness is because I found it in Myself first by learning new ways of being that are healthier, more productive and caring.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi

 

 



Edited by amlhabibi2000
Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmedNagi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2005 at 8:33am

Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh

Dear sister,

   I totally understand your point of view. You say you 'believe that given the education, training and community support a person can become a better person'. What is that based on? Can you gauranttee the effectiveness of this?

   Also that still doesnt answer the question: how is this fair to the vicitims of crime?

   I admire your perseverence and commitment to ever imrpove yourself, but bear in mind that not everyone wants to learn. Broken homes are not an excuse to go out and hurt someone. No one is born a monster. That is very true. People choose to be monsters and they have to bear the consequences of their choices. I have seen alot of people choose the easy way even though they came from very healthy family structures, and I've also seen many spiritual people come from broken homes. If we let circumstances be the excuse of every criminal, everyone will have his/her excuse to commit every crime s/he wants. Islam is based on a punishing the disobedient to God and rewarding the obedient.  Thats what God sees is best for man.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amlhabibi2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 November 2005 at 11:13am

 

Alaikoam Salam

I appreciate what you are saying though I believe if people has a chance to see they can have a little place of Paradise within themselves, their families, communities, Nations without resorting to violence or other abusive strategies and that they too can have a good life where there is dignity, respect and caring all way around.

This is the Islam, Life I believe in.

As for chastisement and punishment the most hardest of all punishments is working on yourself and becoming and educated, trained, caring, confedent and healthy praticipant in your Life, your Families, Communities and Nations.

Current jails only serve to make people more bitter or deranged.

There has to be more positive and creative ways to encourage and support people being good people and staying good people.

You made a good point about background is no excuse, however education, training, counseling, consultation and Personal Hajj Pilgrimage to our Life is the only way to resolve these cha;llenges in a good way.

Maybe the task vs punishment should be for them to have to make a retreat into the desert, forest for a period of self reflection and contemplation along with the educational training, counseling.

Islam is far more than meets the eye.

 

Mahssallah a good consultation and discussion.

Salam

Anne Marie Elderkin Habibi



Edited by amlhabibi2000
Judgement day passes in the moment we decide something needs attention & we take positive action. Then there will be a great sorting out of people into groups, Inspired by Surah 99 Ayat 1-8
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