Who is Jesus? |
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gospelmap
Newbie Joined: 08 December 2005 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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dear friend sufi w(v[30]);Quran.nu
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gospelmap
Newbie Joined: 08 December 2005 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Dear friend freebird ASW I dont think its sound that simple , neither it appears so.But I would suggest you to have your own study of these term and ask god to show you its meaning hidden.this word is also used in Judaism and christianity (the bible) referring to divinity.In Surah 58.22 where we read that God strengthens true believers with "a spirit from him". The Muslim translator Yusuf Ali appends the following comment to this verse: |
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DavidC
Senior Member Male Christian Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: Florida USA Status: Offline Points: 2474 |
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Sufi_Observer - thank you for the clarification of 9:19
In Gospelmap's latest post he graciously argues against his own point by demonstrating how translation can affect understanding. What is interesting to me, however, is that all three of his (her?) examples reference God providing a son. There is no translational difference there. Can you (or anyone) provide more information about the Arabic word and how the ulema has traditionally taught these verses? One of the richest Christian understandings of the Father/Son relationship is that of a king to a prince. We view God as the creator of all (including Jesus), who eventually turns over control of his creation to the Christ. Maybe understanding the Arabic can help us move this discussion past religion 101. |
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Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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gospelmap
Newbie Joined: 08 December 2005 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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The angle said to Mary in the Quran: � I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow an thee a faultless son. � Sura 19:19� For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isaiah 9:6) Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.(John 3:16) No other prophet or person was born from a virgin, and was without sin except Jesus according to both the Quran and the Bible. the new Testament, we can read about the sinless life of Jesus in the following verses: �He committed no sin, � 1Peter 2: 22 �He knew no sin, � II Corinthians 5: 21 � In Him there is no sin, � I John 3:5
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AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
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O my dear brother gospelmap, thanks for your replies. Your replies indeed strengthen my hypothesis that most of my Christian brothers don't know about the historicity of their own Bible. This is not to discourage you as what you believe, but to make you aware of as what you quote so generously from all over the Bible, especially the NT. Nevertheless, here is my humble response to your quotes from the Bible. 1. You quoted (John 10:31-33), but point to be noted here is that its not what Jesus said, but what others understood of him. In either case, this parable "Father and I are one." is commonly understood that "Father and my message" is one, especially in the context of Prophethood of Jesus. Hence, whatever he says, is from God and not from himself. This is quite frequently found in Ahadith literature of Prophet Mohammad. This is why Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad is so important for us, even then we never ascribe any divinity to Prophet Mohammad. 2. John 5:18 has also the same explanation as presented above. 3. In (John 14:9) , typically people were asking him to show them the God. Is this not a silly question from a Prophet, especially once they new that it was written that no one has seen the God. How can any sane person than ask to show them the God? The best answer to this silly question, again in the context of Prophethood of Jesus, that for all practical purposes, he is the representative of God on earth. So, in that sense this passage can easily be explained that anyone who obeys Jesus, obeys God. In the same token anyone who has seen Jesus, has seen the God. No divinity needed for this simple understanding. Isn't it? 4. Your evidence from John 8:56-59 to show any divinity of Jesus is not comprehensively understood. Especially how come all lowered Greek words 'ego eimi', " can be translated as all capital (I AM)? Is their any rules capitalizing Greek words during translation to english words?? I don't know. Secondly, it is also intersting to know that Jesus used to speak Greek language and not the Aramaic. Are you sure of this?? 5. Your reference from Rev 1:17-18 can be anything but to show that Jesus has any divinity especially once the statement says "....and I was dead..." Also, probably, you would also like to tell us the author of this book Revelations and his relationship with Jesus to put such words in his mouth? 6. Similarly your reference to "(Mark 14:61-63) Now when you quote "1.Phil. 2:5-8" it is here when my objection to what is commonly called as "Pauline Christianity" begins. Nevertheless, is there any physical association of St. Paul with Physical Jesus? Only my Christian brothers would tell as how?
On more important issue than above, I am still awaiting your response to the last part of my post where I said "clearly know that our God is just one and only one. Isn't it written in the famous 10 commandments of OT and thus known to my Jewish brother as well? Don't you agree with me on this? So, let us focus on this what is clearly known, beyond doubt, and leave things to God which we are made to believe to understand through human philosophy, developed through un-clear verses, may it in Quran or in Bible.
Edited by AhmadJoyia |
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gospelmap
Newbie Joined: 08 December 2005 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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Dear freind Ok now let me answere your second question before I take on again the first. Should I appeal to groups like nations of islam ,ahamadiyyas,bahai ?etc.you may very well give the reasons against their understanding about Quran just like we give about our jewish brothers.hence the point is they are not our authority.we need to look in the scriptures for our search for God .ok now about your question of one God. There are 9 different Hebrew words, which can be translated as "one" at times. They are ish, ishah, nephesh, yachid, almoni, echad, gam, badad, and chad. Lets focus on two particular words. The word "yachid" means an absolute or solitary one.This word is never applied to God because "Elohim conveys both the unity of the one God, and yet allows for the plurality of Divine Persons .hence the word used is echad .Echad "STRESSES UNITY, WHILE RECOGNIZING DIVERSITY WITHIN THAT ONENESS" . When we turn to the Old Testament, what do we find? The writers of the Old Testament never applied yachid to God. God is never described as a solitary person. Isaiah 6:8-"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?'". Let US make man in our image in our likeness (Gen1:26) The singular "I' and the plural "us" shows the plurality (us) So you see trinity is also seen in the old testament but not perceived by the jews fully .but for a Christian its not hard to understand the above verses , the words Elohim and echad ,because of God�s revelation during the new testament period in Christ Jesus. The doctrine of the Trinity is that there is one God who exists in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person is not the same as the other person; that is, the Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. Each is fully God in nature. Each person is not a god in itself. Instead, the totality of all three persons comprises the one God. There are not three gods or tritheism, but one in substance or essence and not oneness of persons since God is a spirit.We believe there are no partners with God because we believe there is only one (ecchad) God in all existence. Again note that the word person is used to explain that God is not a nonpersonal power which is abstract in nature but one who hears ,answers and understands us etc
. the doctrine of the plurality in the One Godhead is found in many intriguing passages in the OT including Gen 1:27-28, Gen 11:5-8, Gen 18:1-15, Ps 2:4-12, Ps 110:1, Prov 30:4, Is 6:8, Is 48:16, Dan 7:13 etc). These and other passages reveal a complexity to God, that was veiled in the OT but was made explicitly in the NT with the coming of Christ.
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gospelmap
Newbie Joined: 08 December 2005 Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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AhmedNagi
Groupie Joined: 18 November 2005 Location: Egypt Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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Al Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahamtu Allahi Wa Barakatuh, Dear Gospelmap, Im ok with the idea that Jesus has never sinned. But I have a question for you: How can i believe that the bible we have represents the true sayings of Jesus? It's full of contradictions and if Jesus never erred then there is no way he contradicted himself or science. Pure and simple. |
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