Dear sister Aml Habibi!

I am really sorry for the inconvenience I caused you and lot others in reading. I would definitely take this in my mind to kepp the text more spaced.

Well I really can�t make out that when you say, �Though we could call these ayats because who knows where the writting from any work you do will end up maybe in a new Quran, Katab, Book of Scriptures.� You say it in insolence or you really think that way.

But I or anyone for that matter can�t do this. This is indeed way beyond my capability or for that matter anyone�s capability.

Quran says: �And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says: �It has been revealed to me�; while nothing has been revealed to him, or he who says: �I can reveal the like of what Allah has revealed?� and if you could see (you would have seen that) when the unjust shall be in the agonies of death and the angels shall spread forth their hands: Deliver up your souls; today you shall be recompensed with an ignominious chastisement because you spoke against Allah other than the truth and (because) you showed pride against His communications.�

So definitely nothing has been revealed to me and these are all my own thoughts. The difference between a revelation and a personal idea is that a revelation can never contain an iota of falsehood or error while a personal idea is always prone to it.

Secondly you said, �There is no distinction in the Quran yet many hundreds of thousands of woman have perished due to false accusations or imprisonment.                                 Woman have been treated by men as door mats, sex toys and their lives and their childrens lives hung by a thread because some men, some people deem themselves more important.�  I agree with you in this regard. Not only women but hundred of men and children have also perished due to false accusations. That is why Allah has strictly forbidden accusing anyone.

Let me give you account of what happened in the times of Prophet. A companion came to him and asked (he was sent by another companion) if someone see his wife with another man in a compromising position what should he do can he bring the case to the court? The Prophet said, Go forth and don�t ask such silly questions. That went to the other and informed him that, �I earned the annoyance of Prophet due to you and I would never ask anything for you in future.� The companion came to Prophet and asked the same question he was also rebuked by the Prophet. Then he specifically asked that he has seen his wife with someone so what to do? Prophet said, either bring 4 witness or produce yourself for 80 lashes on the charge of false accusations. At that moment the verses of �Leaan� swearing by both husband and wife in front of court for their innocence were revealed.  

In the times of Caliph Omer 2 persons were brought for fighting and one had said that, �Neither my mother was adulterous nor my father.� Caliph Omer asked him �you said this as if the parents of other person were adulterous? Do you have any proof of this accusation?� so once the gentleman could offer no justification for his statement he was convicted and awarded 80 lashes for false accusations.

So Islam cannot be blamed for the actions of certain people who deem themselves to be more important, and causes the women or children to suffer or use them as maids or sex tools. It is indeed our duty to teach them and to try to put them on the right path and make this society a peaceful one. But remember we cannot achieve a perfect society or what you call it a �JANNAH� because some will follow their selfish whims and some their friend SATAN who is out there in their way to let them go astray.

Shams Zaman

Pakistan   

Dear Brother Ahmed Joya!

The words  "after the initial verses of Sura Noor were revealed Prophet said���." are in the commentry of Hadith and not in Hadith. That's good that you have found so many references and its surprising that you have not found out that if there were no orders of stoning from Allah's side then how could Prophet or his companions execute someone with this punishments.

That mean the Prphet was doing it wrong or against the will of Allah. Because if this punishment was to be ammended no one would have been executed. Does that mean that if we don't find a punishment in Quran or Hadith we should give the maximum punishment DEATH.

If that was the case then God would have responded immediately to stop Prophet and would have clearly said so. Prior to this the instructions in Sura Nisa were revealed that they should be kept as prisoners in house. So under these circumstances how could be the punishment of Rijam could have been given. Sura Nisa was revealed between 3-4 Hijra and Sura Noor was revealed in 6 Hijra. 

Whatever Prophet do it is by the permission of Allah. And it is surprising that if you say this, "though I do admit there are numerous ahadith on this subject, but the point is that none tells us that these examples were before or after the verses revealed in surah Noor. Hence, these examples do nothing to resolve the issue. On the contrary, there are some ahadith that do show the fact that such punishments were prescribed based upon the injunctions of earlier scriptures."

Perhaps you should say that although this punishment is there but you don't agree that this is a just punishment. Well you are at liberty to think whatever you consider is appropriate. I have stated the facts. You find them logical or illogical its all upto you. And by this formula the whole collection of Hadith stands unreliable.

Shams Zaman     Pakistan

My dear bro Shams Zaman thanks again for your kind response. Probably it is not proper to ask "If that was the case then God would have responded immediately to stop Prophet and would have clearly said so." simply because of gradual nature of Quran revelations. With the availability of clear verses from Quran, it is highly improbable that the messanger of God could have gone against them. The only possiblity then left out is that these incidents must have been before the revelation of verses in surah Noor especially when it is now clearly known that punishment of stoning was prevailing among the then Jews around the society as clearly evident from some of the hadith literature. Therefore, it is in this sense, that this punishment could have simply been imported from them, in the absence of any other commandments by Allah by that time.

Another dimension to this issue is the legal superiority of Quranic injunctions over the hadith literature and not the vice versa. Meaning thereby that hadith literature supplements the Quranic injunctions rather than supplant them. On the basis of evidence provided thus far, I think, the punishment of stoning is not justifiable on any Islamic pretext. This is the view which is logical and not merely based upon faith. Of course, this view is also revisable but only when more evidence to the contrary can be presented. Till that time, I hope one would not jump to the conclusions but walk through it with open mind and wisdom.

Anne quick question I don't believe I've asked you this before but if I haveif you may, allow me to go back to the question: Are you Muslim?

If you can lease answer that.

Second is if you are, then you would agree, that any text from God especially considered the word of God shouldn't be said by mere mortals that it should be rewritten if that is so, then there would the presumption of God's fallibility. True mankind can receive such revelation and corrupt text through their own interpretation. So not to derail this topic I'd like for you to evaluate yourself when you think about this.