Women-Led Friday Prayer |
Post Reply | Page <1 910111213 28> |
Author | |||||||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
No, I don't disagree. Women can lead women in prayers. Regarding your 2nd question, I am not very sure. Some says for women lead by women, it is not required for the imam to be in front and some says she can be in front. However, the hadidth that you are refering to, may not be applicable in this case as in case of just two people offering prayer, the imam is not in front but on the left of the 2nd person. Rest Allah knows the best. |
|||||||||||||
herjihad
Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
Bismillah, Modern day applications: Does anyone disagree that women can lead women in salat; that it is better indeed this way because prayer in congregation has more blessings? We gather for meetings, Quran groups, play groups, tea, etc. I usually prefer to have a leader in the prayer because we are more symbolically united as a group, and it feels that way spiritually. Another issue: Why does the leader have to be in front? I read a hadith years ago about the prophet Muhammad, pbuh, praying beside Aysha in their crowded room because it was small. |
|||||||||||||
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
|
|||||||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
Bro Rami Thanks for your elaborated response. Though the logical approach that have been presented is quite impressive; especially with regard to questionable chain of narrations. However, once further analysis is done merely on the account of the same hadith, I have little difficulty in understanding in some of the points discussed and need your help.
Here case is still needed to show that the hadith narration of "Dar" means home and in no possible way it could mean "area". Till that case isestablished your conclusion that she might had acted contrary to the order of prophet is not well understood.
Ok! that could be a valid reason. However, then what is the import of the whole narration of this hadith. I mean, there doesn't seem to be any unusual advice for her from the Prophet Mohammad since she already must have been doing so for her regular obligatory prayer in her home. Also the need for "own mu�adhdhin " is not clear if all she needed was to offer a prayer in her home. Now coming to your second possiblity.
Her establishing the prayer in a mosque located in her home would be consistent [Dur plural of Dar], and that they be cleaned and perfumed.�22 Before we go into more important questions that you have addressed, my humble question is why were people (not only women but males as well) were allowed to have mosques in their homes despite the fact that all males were stressed to come to mosque for their obligatory prayers. Far distance could be one reason, where small groups of people formed an exclusive area from where it might not be possible for the people to attend the mosque regularly 5 times a day. If you know any other reasons, I shall appreciate it, however, if this is assumed to be the reason, then the command for "Umm-Warqa" to establish mosque in her home might have a ligitimate reason to assume that people outside her home might also had offered prayer in her home. Thirdly, if it is established that she had her "own mu�adhdhin ", the question arises, could this "mu'adhdin" be a female? I assume not, as the word for female in arabic would be "mu'adhdina" and not "mu'adhdhin", then the question comes as how this "mu'adhdhin" might had offered the prayer after his ad'ahn for "all ladies show"?
Based on these and other relevant narrations, we can safely conclude that Umm I think there are could be more possiblities other than the three you mentioned and would like to extend them to such as (iv) people of her neighbourhood, (v) people of her house (including both male and female). Having a dedicated "mu�adhdhin" rules out all possibilities except the (ii) and (iv). Isn't it? People don't need exclusive dedicated "mu�adhdhin " for their prayers at home untill or unless it is an occassion as mentioned in possiblities (ii) and (iv). Even if it is established that it was the possiblity # (ii) i.e. all women of the area offering prayer at her home, the question as to how the "mu�adhdhin " might had offered his prayer could remain more closer to as having it offered behind Umm-Warqah rather than assuming him to go far distance away to attend the other mosque.
Probably, we don't need a proof for the word "Dar" , if the reasons for estabhishing a mosque in a house is found. If the reason that I have presented is correct then this word could logically means "area" and not merely "home".
I think Reda in this reasoning implies "not a dedicated" mu'adhdin. Of course we all know the right for a congregational prayer, but the issue is of a dedicated vs non-dedicated mu'adhdhin. In my humble opinion, no one needs a dedicated mu'adhdhin, if its private home affair or for just two or three people are assumed to pray. Anyone out of them could act as a mu'adhdhin. Why need a "dedicated one" is not understood untill or unless it is an affair of group of people in that area?
..... According to a hadith mentioned by al-Bukhari and others, even a person who is praying alone in an isolated area should make the call to prayer Of course this is the case and he should not expect to have a dedicated "mu'adhdhin" for his prayer.
We can't decide as yet, based on your arguments presented so far.
......30 The relevant point here is that the prayer was a private matter, conducted in the confines of Umm Waraqa�s home, limited to the inhabitants of her house. Missing the point of having a dedicaed "mu'adhdhin".
...........Based on this understanding, it is not unreasonable to interpret Ahla Dariha, in the hadith of Umm Waraqa, as the people of her �area,� as Reda does. However, we are not left to guess as to who those people are. Imam ad-Daraqutni�s narration of this hadith mentions that Umm Waraqa was ordered to lead her women in prayer �wa ta�umma Nisa�aha.32 Hence, if the people praying with Umm Waraqa were from the surrounding area, they were all women, as Imam ad-Daraqutni�s version of the hadith makes clear. Based on this second line of reasoning, we have to accept that they were women, in accords with an interpretive principle, �There is no room for speculation when transmitted evidence exists.�33 Here the text specifically states, �her women.� Ad- Daraqutni�s version would clarify a potentially vague expression in the other versions. I respect this reasoning, however, the reasons to neglect all other sources for this hadith (Abu Dawud,6 ad-Daraqutni,7 al- Bayhaqi,8 al-Hakim,9 the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa�d,10 and other sources) and relying only on one (that suits the theory) is not a logical way of establishing anything. A great effort is then needed to establish why the other sources did not mention "her women" without relegating this hadith to the status of "weak". Moreover the question of "how might the mu'adhidhin had offered the prayer?" would still hang out to conclude anything but to say that he might had offered behind Umm-Warqah.
A third possibility, also based on joining between the majority narration and ad Daraqutni�s version of the hadith, would lead us to understand that the people of Umm Waraqa�s house were all women. Hence, Ahla Dariha (the people of her house) being led in prayer were women. There is no transmitted evidence to the contrary, as the opinion that Ahla Dariha were the two servants and the mu�adhdhin, mentioned above, is an assumption. In al-Mughni, Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi mentions the incumbency of accepting this third interpretation.34 God knows best. Here I feel that its your speculations when you say that the people of Umm Waraqa's house were all women. This is because the trasmitted hadith under discussion is clearly stating the gender of the two slaves in her house. A male and a female. If there is any other source for your assumption, then I don't know since you never quoted it in your response. However, if the very authenticity of hadith is in question, then there is no need for any further discussion as the only evidence presented for female leading the prayer is refuted straight away.
This latter understanding that Umm Waraqa only led women in prayer is strengthened by two ancillary evidences: <!--[if !supportLists]-->1) The numerous narrations mentioning that �Aisha, Umm Salama, and other female Companions led all women congregations;35 These evidences doesn't rule out the possiblity of having a mosque (in a home or outside) in a area far from the main mosque from where the people of the area could not reach the mosque to offer their prayers five times daily.
I don;t know what was the purpose for establishing this mosque other than the one I have mentioned earlier. However, your statement as "the congregation was all male" do not provide any clue as to how women were taken care of in that area. Don't tell me it meant that women were barred from attending prayers in the mosque. One need to establish this assumption before it is implied. "All male" and "all women" type mosques are not known to me to exist especially in the time of prophet Mohammad. Rest Allah knows the best.
|
|||||||||||||
-ArabianKnight-
Guest Group Joined: 29 July 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 227 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
What if Aliens... Other Life - from other planets.. come visit Earth.. and one of them wants to become Muslim?.. some how... you know... if they aren't alreadY?...
What if they had 5 diffrent sexes... .. Male - Female - Male/Female - Female/Male - and a Non-Reproducing agent.. What would we do if one of them Wanted to Lead a prayer?... ... Oh My.. Think of the out cry?... |
|||||||||||||
THere Is no god, BUT GOD
and Adam was his First Messenger _____________________________ |
|||||||||||||
rami
Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
>>>2. The above Prophetic tradition (hadith) is the reason why several medieval Muslim scholars supported female leadership. These include Tabari (d.310/923), author of the famous tafsir: Jami� al-bayan �an ta�wil ay al-Qur�an and Tarikh al-Rusul wal Muluk, Muzani, Abu Thawr and Abu Sulayman Dawud ibn Khalaf al-Isfahani (d.270/884), founder of the Zahirite school<<< Part 2 The Ruling of al-Muzani, Abu Thawr, Dawud adh-Dhahiri, and at-Tabari As for the
ancillary evidence42 ushered by Reda, it is her
saying: The above
Prophetic tradition (hadith) is the reason why several medieval Muslim scholars
supported female leadership. These include Tabari (d. 310/923), author of the
famous Tafsir: Jami� al-bayan �an ta�wil ay al-Qur�an and Tarikh al-Rasul wal
Muluk, Muzani, Abu Thawr and Abu Sulayman Dawud ibn Khalaf al- Isfahani (d. 270/884,
founder of the Zahirite school.43 We mention this
evidence as ancillary because it cannot be the basis for establishing a ruling.
None of the extant Sunni schools consider the opinions of extinct schools as
independently valid. This fact is not due to prejudice against the Imams of the
extinct schools and unjustly favoring those whose schools have survived. It is
due to a simple methodological issue.
Namely, neither the full corpus of rulings from the extinct schools, nor the
details of their legal methodology have reached us in their entirety. Therefore, we do
not know if a particular ruling attributed to an extinct school has been
abrogated. In the case of the unrestricted
female-led prayer, attributed to Imams at-Tabari, Dawud adh- Dhahiri, or Abu
Thawr, we do not know if that ruling has been abrogated by a contrary ruling.
As for al-Muzani, he was a qualified jurisconsult within the Shafi�i rite and
it cannot be established with certainty that he founded an independent school.44 It is known that
he narrates, in his Mukhtasir,
the accepted opinion of the Shafi�i
school that a woman can only lead other women in the prayer.45
Concerning the opinion of Imam Dawud adh- Dhahiri, Ibn Hazm attempted
to
revive his school, based on a coherent, if debatable methodology.46
This methodology led Ibn Hazm to some very liberal positions, such as
an
endorsement of music, and the permissibility of female prophets.
However, on
the issue of unrestricted female prayer leadership, Ibn Hazm opined
that it was
forbidden by consensus. The
point here is
that, based on a literalist methodology we can assume to be close to
that of
Imam Dawud adh-Dhahiri�s, a contrary opinion has been reached.47 As for
the reports of unrestricted female prayer-leadership that are
attributed to the Imams we have mentioned, they have not reached us
with
unbroken chains, certainly not with irrefutable chains of transmission�Tawatur,
as is the case of the extant schools. In other words, there is no way for us to
say with any degree of certainty that those opinions are indeed the opinions of
Imams at-Tabari, Abu Thawr, and Dawud adh- Dhahiri. That
being the
case, there is no basis to establish the preponderance of the position
of the
extinct schools over that of the extant schools.48 Since the extant
schools have a clear position on unrestricted female prayer-leadership,
and it
is established at the highest level of proof, in the Sunni rite,49 one
is obliged to take that position. This obligation arises from a
legislative principle, �Certainty cannot be removed by doubt.�50 |
|||||||||||||
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
|
|||||||||||||
rami
Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
regarding the evidence you have quoted, here is the reply to it by Shaykh Zaid Shakir a person who is qualafied to comment on the matter. You should note that this is a direct reply to the article you mention. >>>1. The Prophet (peace be upon him) commanded Umm Waraqah, a woman who had collected the Qur�an, to lead the people of her area in prayer. She had her own mu�adhdhin (person who performs the call to prayers)<<< Part 1 The Hadith
of Umm Waraqa As for her lone
substantive evidence, it is the following: The Prophet (peace be upon him)
commanded Umm Waraqah, a woman who had collected the Qur�an, to lead the people
of her area in prayer. She had her own mu�adhdhin [person who performs
the call to prayers].5 This narration, found in the
compilations of Abu Dawud,6 ad-Daraqutni,7 al- Bayhaqi,8 al-Hakim,9 the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa�d,10 and other sources, is
questioned by some scholars of hadith (prophetic tradition) because of
two narrators in its chain of transmission.11 The first is
al-Walid b. �Abdullah b. Jumay�12. Imam adh-Dhahabi mentions
in al-Mizan that although ibn Ma�in, Imam Ahmad, and Abu Hatim
considered him an acceptable narrator, others refused to accept his narrations,
among them Ibn Hibban. Imam al-Hakim also questioned his probity.13 Ibn Hajar al-�Asqalani mentions that al�Aqili said there was
inconsistency in his narrations.14 Although a case
can be made for accepting the narrations of al-Walid, based on those who do
affirm his probity, the state of another narrator in the chain of this hadith,
�Abd ar-Rahman b. Khallad, is Majhul al-Hal (unknown).15 Al-Walid also relates this tradition from his grandmother. Imam
ad-Daraqutni mentions that her state is also unknown.16 In the opinion of
the overwhelming majority of scholars, the existence of a narrator whose state
is unknown would make the transmission conveyed by that chain,weak.17 This combination
of two potentially weak narrators makes it questionable to use the tradition of
Umm Waraqa as the basis for establishing any rulings in the Divine law. While
the questionable nature of this hadith does not undermine the widespread acceptance it has received from the earlier scholars, it does make it
difficult to use as the primary evidence for a major precept of the religion,
which is the case in this discussion. Were we to assume that the tradition is
sound, it would still be difficult to use it as the basis for establishing the
permissibility of a woman leading a public, mixed-gender congregational prayer,
for reasons we shall now mention, if God so wills. First of all, the
Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, advised Umm Waraqa to stay in her
house �Qarri fi Baytiki. This command is of import, as it creates two
possible scenarios for the prayer she led. Either she remained in her house to
lead the congregation, or she left her house to lead it in a mosque at an
outside location. If she left her house to lead the prayer, she would have been
acting contrary to the order of the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon
him. There is no transmitted evidence that the prayer took place outside of her
home. Hence, we can conclude that her mosque was in her house. Her establishing
the prayer in a mosque located in her home would be consistent [Dur plural
of Dar], and that they be cleaned and perfumed.�22 Based on these and
other relevant narrations, we can safely conclude that Umm This would support
the interpretation of Dar as �house� as opposed to �area.� This
interpretation is also consistent with the literal meaning of the term Dar.
Al-Fayruzabadi, Ibn Mandhur, and Raghib al-Isfahani all define Dar as
a
walled structure encompassing a building and a courtyard.23 An
interpretative principle relates that �the origin in expressions is
their literal meaning, there is no resorting to derived meanings
without a
decisive proof.�24 Hence, the term Ahla
Dariha would be best translated �the people of her house.� Based on what has
been narrated that would apparently include a male and female servant, along
with the old man who was appointed by the Prophet, peace and blessings of God
upon him, to serve as her mu�adhdhin (caller to prayer).25 Reda rejects this interpretation, arguing that three people would not
need a mu�adhdhin.26 This is not the case. Those
scholars who consider the Adhan (prayer call) a right associated with
the obligatory prayer, or a right associated with the congregation, hold it to
be Sunna (highly desirable in deference to the prophetic practice) to
issue the call for any congregation assembled to undertake the five obligatory
prayers.27 The size of the
congregation in this regard is irrelevant. According to a hadith mentioned
by al-Bukhari and others, even a person who is praying alone in an isolated
area should make the call to prayer.28 Hence,Reda�s conclusion is
not sound. On the basis of
this interpretation, it is related that Imams al-Muzani, at-Tabari, Were one to reject
this first line of reasoning, a second possibility is that the people being led
in prayer came from the area surrounding Umm Waraqa�s home. This is the
interpretation preferred by Reda. It has a basis in narrations from the
Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him. In the hadith of �Itban b.
Malik, it is related that Ahli�d-Dar used to gather there �fathaba
fi�l-bayt Rijalun min ahli�d-Dar. Ibn Hajar mentions in his commentary on
this hadith that Ahli�d-Dar refers to the people of the
neighborhood �al-Mahallah.31 Based on this
understanding, it is not unreasonable to interpret Ahla Dariha, in the hadith
of Umm Waraqa, as the people of her �area,� as Reda does. However, we are
not left to guess as to who those people are. Imam ad-Daraqutni�s narration of
this hadith mentions that Umm Waraqa was ordered to lead her women in
prayer �wa ta�umma Nisa�aha.32 Hence, if the people praying
with Umm Waraqa were from the surrounding area, they were all women, as Imam
ad-Daraqutni�s version of the hadith makes clear. Based on this
second line of reasoning, we have to accept that they were women, in accords
with an interpretive principle, �There is no room for speculation when
transmitted evidence exists.�33 Here the text specifically
states, �her women.� Ad- Daraqutni�s version would clarify a potentially vague
expression in the other versions. A third
possibility, also based on joining between the majority narration and ad
Daraqutni�s version of the hadith, would lead us to understand that the
people of Umm Waraqa�s house were all women. Hence, Ahla Dariha (the
people of her house) being led in prayer were women. There is no transmitted
evidence to the contrary, as the opinion that Ahla Dariha were the two
servants and the mu�adhdhin, mentioned above, is an assumption. In
al-Mughni, Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi mentions the incumbency of accepting this
third interpretation.34 God knows best. This latter
understanding that Umm Waraqa only led women in prayer is strengthened by two
ancillary evidences: 1) The numerous
narrations mentioning that �Aisha, Umm Salama, and other female Companions led
all women congregations;35 2) and the fact that
when the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, established a mosque in the house of �Itban b. Malik, the
congregation was all male �Rijalun (men) min ahli�d-Dar. It would
therefore make perfect sense for the Prophet to establish an all female
congregation elsewhere. Summary and
Rulings Based on the hadith
of Umm Waraqa, its possible interpretations, and the other ahadith that mention women
leading the prayer during the prophetic epoch, the Sunni jurists have deduced
the following rulings: 1. The Shafi�i and
Hanbali schools allow for a woman to lead other women in prayer without any
restrictions. She can lead such prayers in the mosque or other places. The
Hanafis permit a woman to lead other women in prayer. However, they hold it to
be disliked.36 All three of these schools stipulate that the
woman leading the prayer should stand in the middle of the front row, without
being in front of the women praying along with her. This is based on the
description of the prayer led by �Aisha and Umm Salama. The Malikis hold that a
woman cannot lead other women in the prayer.37 2. Of the three
Sunni schools that hold it permissible for a woman to lead other 3. Imam an-Nawawi
mentions the following ruling in the Majmu�, �If a woman 4. Some modern
scholars hold it permissible for a woman to lead men in prayer Edited by rami |
|||||||||||||
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
|
|||||||||||||
rami
Moderator Group Male Joined: 01 March 2000 Status: Offline Points: 2549 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
assalamu alaikum >>>Will this now become censorship? I have discussed the issue to
which you have not answered. You have not discussed where it is
written in the Quran that a woman can not lead prayer.<<< What you wrote is not Discussion it is the repation of the same idea you have had, that since the quran does not speak specificaly about it it must be permisable. You have ignored my points on this issue and simply repeated your self, a discussion would mean you adress those points specifically. Your asumption that since the quran does not talk about the matter
means it is permisable is not acceptable evidence among any scholar of
Islam. Silence does not mean permisablility, there is
plenty of evidence in the sunnah. can you answer the following question and not simply ignore it. Do you follow the sunnah of rasul allah or are you a Quran only person? >>>Then you discussed things against women such as they must be women who want to become men.<<< I dont know what you are talking about can you give me a specific quote? >>>If that is the case, why is it that a moderator is taking part in
the discussing and making it a personal case instead of an objective
one regarding women leading prayer? Is that fair within the discussion?<<< Moderators can participate in the discussion, there are no
restrictions on this, the forum guidlines are clear and i moderat by
them, therefor you can judge for your self if i unjustly edit your post.
So far i have not said anything as a moderator so you accusation is
false. >>>I would think that you should come to an agreement that there is no
such dictate in the Quran that a woman can not lead prayer. That is
the discussion, period.<<< I have said the quran does not speak on the matter specifically.
This is not the discussion though the discussion is whether women can
lead men in prayer! Evidence from the Quran and Sunnah
is acceptable not simply the Quran. The idea that the quran contradicts
the sunnah is rediculous so no the Quran is not formost above the
sunnah the way you are saying, the sunnah explains the Quran. But nay, by your Lord, they shall not believe until they make you judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which you decide, and submit with full submission} (4:65) "O believers! Obey
Allah and the Messenger when he calls you to what quickens you" (8:24) Allah himself in the Quran is telling us to follow the sunnah of
rasul allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam), there is plenty of
evidence in the Sunnah that women can not lead the prayer.
Edited by rami |
|||||||||||||
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
|
|||||||||||||
AhmadJoyia
Senior Member Joined: 20 March 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1647 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
||||||||||||
I think I am clearly comparing between Sunnah and the quoted hadiths from Um-Warqah only because we have been told that there is nothing about the issue in Quran. So reminding of this fact (The Quran is foremost) again is not understood. Now coming to your point
I think, comes into the category of 'commands to a certian individual untill or unless it is established through some other established sources that this command became the established practise among more general population right in the time of prophet Mohammad. So your quote from the same hadith
needs another independant source of reference to substaniate the matter. In the absence of such a source it would always put doubt that this "command" of prophet had any general effects on the muslims outside the house of um-warqah. I think its time to refer to the whole of the hadith to look more closely on it. Here it is from one of the internet sources " Narrated Umm Waraqah daughter of Nawfal: When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) proceeded for the Battle of Badr, I said to him: Apostle of Allah allow me to accompany you in the battle. I shall act as a nurse for patients. It is possible that Allah might bestow martyrdom upon me. He said: Stay at your home. Allah, the Almighty , will bestow martyrdom upon you. The narrator said: Hence she was called martyr. She read the Qur'an. She sought permission from the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) to have a mu'adhdhin in her house. He, therefore, permitted her (to do so). She announced that her slave and slave-girl would be free after her death. One night they went to her and strangled her with a sheet of cloth until she died, and they ran away. Next day Umar announced among the people, "Anyone who has knowledge about them, or has seen them, should bring them (to him)." Umar (after their arrest) ordered (to crucify them) and they were crucified. This was the first crucifixion at Medina." Before critically analysing the hadith myself, I must make my disclaimer that I am not at all a scholar of hadith, neither I have any authority on the subject. My analysis is solely through my own observation of the contents of the hadith in english translation that has been reproduced from an islamic internet site. Having said all this, I do observe that the contents of this hadith have two different narrators, the first narrator is "umm Warqah" herself as the title shows, however, the second part of it is by some other person (not identified with the contents of the hadith nor before it) who is narrating the incident as to what happened after the death of "Umm-Warqah". Merely on this basis, I think there is sufficient reason to call for independant source of reference which could establish the fact that the practise of leading the prayer by "Umm-Warqah" was for general population of her clan or tribe or area etc. Rest, Allah knows the best.
I am totally confused with your statement (do so without the prophet's express command), what idea are you trying to sell here? |
|||||||||||||
Post Reply | Page <1 910111213 28> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |