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Women-Led Friday Prayer

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:46am

No, I don't disagree. Women can lead women in prayers.

Regarding your 2nd question, I am not very sure. Some says for women lead by women, it is not required for the imam to be in front and some says she can be in front. However, the hadidth that you are refering to, may not be applicable in this case as in case of just two people offering prayer, the imam is not in front but on the left of the 2nd person. Rest Allah knows the best.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:25am

Bismillah,

Modern day applications:  Does anyone disagree that women can lead women in salat; that it is better indeed this way because prayer in congregation has more blessings? 

We gather for meetings, Quran groups, play groups, tea, etc.  I usually prefer to have a leader in the prayer because we are more symbolically united as a group, and it feels that way spiritually.

Another issue:  Why does the leader have to be in front?  I read a hadith years ago about the prophet Muhammad, pbuh, praying beside Aysha in their crowded room because it was small.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 12:39pm

Bro Rami

Thanks for your elaborated response. Though the logical approach that have been presented is quite impressive; especially with regard to questionable chain of narrations. However, once further analysis is done merely on the account of the same hadith, I have little difficulty in understanding in some of the points discussed and need your help.

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

.......
>>>1. The Prophet (peace be upon him) commanded Umm Waraqah, a woman who had collected the Qur�an, to lead the people of her area in prayer. She had her own mu�adhdhin (person who performs the call to prayers)<<<........
 If she left her house to lead the prayer, she would have been acting contrary to the order of the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him.

Here case is still needed to show that the hadith narration of "Dar" means home and in no possible way it could mean "area". Till that case isestablished your conclusion that she might had acted contrary to the order of prophet is not well understood.

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

There is no transmitted evidence that the prayer took place outside of her home. Hence, we can conclude that her mosque was in her house.

Ok! that could be a valid reason. However, then what is the import of the whole narration of this hadith. I mean, there doesn't seem to be any unusual advice for her from the Prophet Mohammad since she already must have been doing so for her regular obligatory prayer in her home. Also the need for "own mu�adhdhin  " is not clear if all she needed was to offer a prayer in her home. Now coming to your second possiblity.

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

 

Her establishing the prayer in a mosque located in her home would be consistent with numerous narrations where the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, permitted various companions to establish mosques in their homes.18 Imam al-Bukhari mentions that al-Bara� b. �Azib led congregational prayers in the mosque in his house � Salla al-Bara� Ibn �Azib fi masjidihi fi darihi jama�atan.19 Imam al-Bukhari also mentions a hadith where the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, went to the house of a blind companion, �Itban b. Malik, to establish a mosque there.20 Ibn Majah produces several narrations of this event.21 In fact, the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, ordered the generality of believers to establish mosques in their homes. �Aisha relates, �The Messenger of God ordered that mosques be established in the homes

[Dur plural of Dar], and that they be cleaned and perfumed.�22

Before we go into more important questions that you have addressed, my humble question is why were people (not only women but males as well) were allowed to have mosques in their homes despite the fact that all males were stressed to come to mosque for their obligatory prayers. Far distance could be one reason, where small groups of people formed an exclusive area from where it might not be possible for the people to attend the mosque regularly 5 times a day. If you know any other reasons, I shall appreciate it, however, if this is assumed to be the reason, then the command for "Umm-Warqa" to establish mosque in her home might have a ligitimate reason to assume that people outside her home might also had offered prayer in her home. Thirdly, if it is established that she had her "own mu�adhdhin ", the question arises, could this "mu'adhdin" be a female? I assume not, as the word for female in arabic would be "mu'adhdina" and not "mu'adhdhin", then the question comes as  how this "mu'adhdhin" might had offered the prayer after his ad'ahn for "all ladies show"?

 

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

 

Based on these and other relevant narrations, we can safely conclude that Umm Waraqa had a mosque in her house, and that the prayer she led was not in a public place outside of her home. A more controversial point is who was being led in the prayer? Here there are three possibilities: her mu�adhdhin (prayer caller) and two servants; the women from the neighborhood surrounding her home; the women of her house.

I think there are could be more possiblities other than the three you mentioned and would like to extend them to such as (iv) people of her neighbourhood, (v) people of her house (including both male and female). Having a dedicated "mu�adhdhin" rules out all possibilities except the (ii) and (iv). Isn't it? People don't need exclusive dedicated "mu�adhdhin " for their prayers at home untill or unless it is an occassion as mentioned in possiblities (ii) and (iv). Even if it is established that it was the possiblity # (ii) i.e. all women of the area offering prayer at her home, the question as to how the "mu�adhdhin " might had offered his prayer could remain more closer to as having it offered behind Umm-Warqah rather than assuming him to go far distance away to attend the other mosque. 

  

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

 

....... .23 An interpretative principle relates that �the origin in expressions is their literal meaning, there is no resorting to derived meanings without a decisive proof.�

Probably, we don't need a proof for the word "Dar" , if the reasons for estabhishing  a mosque in a house is found. If the reason that I have presented is correct then this word could logically means "area" and not merely "home".

 

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

 

Based on what has been narrated that would apparently include a male and female servant, along with the old man who was appointed by the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, to serve as her mu�adhdhin (caller to prayer).25 Reda rejects this interpretation, arguing that three people would not need a mu�adhdhin.26 This is not the case. Those scholars who consider the Adhan (prayer call) a right associated with the obligatory prayer, or a right associated with the congregation, hold it to be Sunna (highly desirable in deference to the prophetic practice) to issue the call for any congregation assembled to undertake the five obligatory prayers.27

I think Reda in this reasoning implies "not a dedicated" mu'adhdin. Of course we all know the right for a congregational prayer, but the issue is of a dedicated vs non-dedicated mu'adhdhin. In my humble opinion, no one needs a dedicated mu'adhdhin, if its private home affair or for just two or three people are assumed to pray. Anyone out of them could act as a mu'adhdhin. Why need a "dedicated one" is not understood untill or unless it is an affair of group of people in that area?

 

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

..... According to a hadith mentioned by al-Bukhari and others, even a person who is praying alone in an isolated area should make the call to prayer

Of course this is the case and he should not expect to have a dedicated "mu'adhdhin" for his prayer.

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

28 Hence,Reda�s conclusion is not sound.

We can't decide as yet, based on your arguments presented so far. 

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

......30 The relevant point here is that the prayer was a private matter, conducted in the confines of Umm Waraqa�s home, limited to the inhabitants of her house.

Missing the point of having a dedicaed "mu'adhdhin".

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

...........Based on this understanding, it is not unreasonable to interpret Ahla Dariha, in the hadith of Umm Waraqa, as the people of her �area,� as Reda does. However, we are not left to guess as to who those people are. Imam ad-Daraqutni�s narration of this hadith mentions that Umm Waraqa was ordered to lead her women in prayer �wa ta�umma Nisa�aha.32 Hence, if the people praying with Umm Waraqa were from the surrounding area, they were all women, as Imam ad-Daraqutni�s version of the hadith makes clear.

Based on this second line of reasoning, we have to accept that they were women, in accords with an interpretive principle, �There is no room for speculation when transmitted evidence exists.�33 Here the text specifically states, �her women.� Ad- Daraqutni�s version would clarify a potentially vague expression in the other versions.

I respect this reasoning, however, the reasons to neglect all other sources for this hadith (Abu Dawud,6 ad-Daraqutni,7 al- Bayhaqi,8 al-Hakim,9 the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa�d,10 and other sources) and relying only on one (that suits the theory) is not a logical way of establishing anything. A great effort is then needed to establish why the other sources did not mention "her women" without relegating this hadith to the status of "weak". Moreover the question of "how might the mu'adhidhin had offered the prayer?" would still hang out to conclude anything but to say that he might had offered behind Umm-Warqah. 

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

A third possibility, also based on joining between the majority narration and ad Daraqutni�s version of the hadith, would lead us to understand that the people of Umm Waraqa�s house were all women. Hence, Ahla Dariha (the people of her house) being led in prayer were women. There is no transmitted evidence to the contrary, as the opinion that Ahla Dariha were the two servants and the mu�adhdhin, mentioned above, is an assumption. In al-Mughni, Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi mentions the incumbency of accepting this third interpretation.34 God knows best.

Here I feel that its your speculations when you say that the people of Umm Waraqa's house were all women. This is because the trasmitted hadith under discussion is clearly stating the gender of the two slaves in her house. A male and a female. If there is any other source for your assumption, then I don't know since you never quoted it in your response. However, if the very authenticity of hadith is in question, then there is no need for any further discussion as the only evidence presented for female leading the prayer is refuted straight away.

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

This latter understanding that Umm Waraqa only led women in prayer is strengthened by two ancillary evidences:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)     The numerous narrations mentioning that �Aisha, Umm Salama, and other female Companions led all women congregations;35 <!--[endif]-->

These evidences doesn't rule out the possiblity of having a mosque (in a home or outside) in a area far from the main mosque from where the people of the area could not reach the mosque to offer their prayers five times daily.

Originally posted by rami rami wrote:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->2)     and the fact that when the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, established a  mosque in the house of �Itban b. Malik, the congregation was all male �Rijalun (men) min ahli�d-Dar. It would therefore make perfect sense for the Prophet to establish an all female congregation elsewhere.<!--[endif]-->

I don;t know what was the purpose for establishing this mosque other than the one I have mentioned earlier. However, your statement as "the congregation was all male" do not provide any clue as to how women were taken care of in that area. Don't tell me it meant that women were barred from attending prayers in the mosque. One need to establish this assumption before it is implied. "All male" and "all women" type mosques are not known to me to exist especially in the time of prophet Mohammad. Rest Allah knows the best.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote -ArabianKnight- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 12:22am
What if Aliens... Other Life - from other planets.. come visit Earth.. and one of them wants to become Muslim?.. some how... you know... if they aren't alreadY?...

What if they had 5 diffrent sexes... .. Male - Female - Male/Female - Female/Male - and a Non-Reproducing agent..

What would we do if one of them Wanted to Lead a prayer?... ... Oh My.. Think of the out cry?...

THere Is no god, BUT GOD
and Adam was his First Messenger
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 April 2005 at 10:37pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

>>>2. The above Prophetic tradition (hadith) is the reason why several medieval Muslim scholars supported female leadership. These include Tabari (d.310/923), author of the famous tafsir: Jami� al-bayan �an ta�wil ay al-Qur�an and Tarikh al-Rusul wal Muluk, Muzani, Abu Thawr and Abu Sulayman Dawud ibn Khalaf al-Isfahani (d.270/884), founder of the Zahirite school<<<

Part 2 The Ruling of al-Muzani, Abu Thawr, Dawud adh-Dhahiri, and at-Tabari

As for the ancillary evidence42 ushered by Reda, it is her saying:

The above Prophetic tradition (hadith) is the reason why several medieval Muslim scholars supported female leadership. These include Tabari (d. 310/923), author of the famous Tafsir: Jami� al-bayan �an ta�wil ay al-Qur�an and Tarikh al-Rasul wal Muluk, Muzani, Abu Thawr and Abu Sulayman Dawud ibn Khalaf al-

Isfahani (d. 270/884, founder of the Zahirite school.43

We mention this evidence as ancillary because it cannot be the basis for establishing a ruling. None of the extant Sunni schools consider the opinions of extinct schools as independently valid. This fact is not due to prejudice against the Imams of the extinct schools and unjustly favoring those whose schools have survived. It is due to a simple  methodological issue. Namely, neither the full corpus of rulings from the extinct schools, nor the details of their legal methodology have reached us in their entirety.

Therefore, we do not know if a particular ruling attributed to an extinct school has been abrogated. In the case of the unrestricted female-led prayer, attributed to Imams at-Tabari, Dawud adh- Dhahiri, or Abu Thawr, we do not know if that ruling has been abrogated by a contrary ruling. As for al-Muzani, he was a qualified jurisconsult within the Shafi�i rite and it cannot be established with certainty that he founded an independent school.44

It is known that he narrates, in his Mukhtasir, the accepted opinion of the Shafi�i school that a woman can only lead other women in the prayer.45 Concerning the opinion of Imam Dawud adh- Dhahiri, Ibn Hazm attempted to revive his school, based on a coherent, if debatable methodology.46 This methodology led Ibn Hazm to some very liberal positions, such as an endorsement of music, and the permissibility of female prophets. However, on the issue of unrestricted female prayer leadership, Ibn Hazm opined that it was forbidden by consensus.

The point here is that, based on a literalist methodology we can assume to be close to that of Imam Dawud adh-Dhahiri�s, a contrary opinion has been reached.47 As for the reports of unrestricted female prayer-leadership that are attributed to the Imams we have mentioned, they have not reached us with unbroken chains, certainly not with irrefutable chains of transmission�Tawatur, as is the case of the extant schools. In other words, there is no way for us to say with any degree of certainty that those opinions are indeed the opinions of Imams at-Tabari, Abu Thawr, and Dawud adh- Dhahiri.

That being the case, there is no basis to establish the preponderance of the position of the extinct schools over that of the extant schools.48 Since the extant schools have a clear position on unrestricted female prayer-leadership, and it is established at the highest level of proof, in the Sunni rite,49 one is obliged to take that position. This obligation arises from a legislative principle, �Certainty cannot be removed by doubt.�50



Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 April 2005 at 10:36pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

regarding the evidence you have quoted, here is the reply to it by Shaykh Zaid Shakir a person who is qualafied to comment on the matter. You should note that this is a direct reply to the article you mention.

>>>1. The Prophet (peace be upon him) commanded Umm Waraqah, a woman who had collected the Qur�an, to lead the people of her area in prayer. She had her own mu�adhdhin (person who performs the call to prayers)<<<

Part 1 The Hadith of Umm Waraqa

As for her lone substantive evidence, it is the following: The Prophet (peace be upon him) commanded Umm Waraqah, a woman who had collected the Qur�an, to lead the people of her area in prayer. She had her own mu�adhdhin [person who performs the call to prayers].5 This narration, found in the compilations of Abu Dawud,6 ad-Daraqutni,7 al- Bayhaqi,8 al-Hakim,9 the Tabaqat of Ibn Sa�d,10 and other sources, is questioned by some scholars of hadith (prophetic tradition) because of two narrators in its chain of transmission.11 The first is al-Walid b. �Abdullah b. Jumay�12. Imam adh-Dhahabi mentions in al-Mizan that although ibn Ma�in, Imam Ahmad, and Abu Hatim considered him an acceptable narrator, others refused to accept his narrations, among them Ibn Hibban. Imam al-Hakim also questioned his probity.13 Ibn Hajar al-�Asqalani mentions that al�Aqili said there was inconsistency in his narrations.14

Although a case can be made for accepting the narrations of al-Walid, based on those who do affirm his probity, the state of another narrator in the chain of this hadith, �Abd ar-Rahman b. Khallad, is Majhul al-Hal (unknown).15 Al-Walid also relates this tradition from his grandmother. Imam ad-Daraqutni mentions that her state is also unknown.16 In the opinion of the overwhelming majority of scholars, the existence of a narrator whose state is unknown would make the transmission conveyed by that chain,weak.17

This combination of two potentially weak narrators makes it questionable to use the tradition of Umm Waraqa as the basis for establishing any rulings in the Divine law. While the questionable nature of this hadith does not undermine the widespread acceptance it has received from the earlier scholars, it does make it difficult to use as the primary evidence for a major precept of the religion, which is the case in this discussion. Were we to assume that the tradition is sound, it would still be difficult to use it as the basis for establishing the permissibility of a woman leading a public, mixed-gender congregational prayer, for reasons we shall now mention, if God so wills.

First of all, the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, advised Umm Waraqa to stay in her house �Qarri fi Baytiki. This command is of import, as it creates two possible scenarios for the prayer she led. Either she remained in her house to lead the congregation, or she left her house to lead it in a mosque at an outside location. If she left her house to lead the prayer, she would have been acting contrary to the order of the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him. There is no transmitted evidence that the prayer took place outside of her home. Hence, we can conclude that her mosque was in her house.

Her establishing the prayer in a mosque located in her home would be consistent with numerous narrations where the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, permitted various companions to establish mosques in their homes.18 Imam al-Bukhari mentions that al-Bara� b. �Azib led congregational prayers in the mosque in his house � Salla al-Bara� Ibn �Azib fi masjidihi fi darihi jama�atan.19 Imam al-Bukhari also mentions a hadith where the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, went to the house of a blind companion, �Itban b. Malik, to establish a mosque there.20 Ibn Majah produces several narrations of this event.21 In fact, the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, ordered the generality of believers to establish mosques in their homes. �Aisha relates, �The Messenger of God ordered that mosques be established in the homes

[Dur plural of Dar], and that they be cleaned and perfumed.�22

Based on these and other relevant narrations, we can safely conclude that Umm Waraqa had a mosque in her house, and that the prayer she led was not in a public place outside of her home. A more controversial point is who was being led in the prayer? Here there are three possibilities: her mu�adhdhin (prayer caller) and two servants; the women from the neighborhood surrounding her home; the women of her house. As for the first possibility, the wording of the hadith, along with the narrations we quoted above, would lead one to believe that the residents of her house were being led in the prayer. All of those narrations use Dar to refer to house.

This would support the interpretation of Dar as �house� as opposed to �area.� This interpretation is also consistent with the literal meaning of the term Dar. Al-Fayruzabadi, Ibn Mandhur, and Raghib al-Isfahani all define Dar as a walled structure encompassing a building and a courtyard.23 An interpretative principle relates that �the origin in expressions is their literal meaning, there is no resorting to derived meanings without a decisive proof.�24 Hence, the term Ahla Dariha would be best translated �the people of her house.�

Based on what has been narrated that would apparently include a male and female servant, along with the old man who was appointed by the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, to serve as her mu�adhdhin (caller to prayer).25 Reda rejects this interpretation, arguing that three people would not need a mu�adhdhin.26 This is not the case. Those scholars who consider the Adhan (prayer call) a right associated with the obligatory prayer, or a right associated with the congregation, hold it to be Sunna (highly desirable in deference to the prophetic practice) to issue the call for any congregation assembled to undertake the five obligatory prayers.27

The size of the congregation in this regard is irrelevant. According to a hadith mentioned by al-Bukhari and others, even a person who is praying alone in an isolated area should make the call to prayer.28 Hence,Reda�s conclusion is not sound.

On the basis of this interpretation, it is related that Imams al-Muzani, at-Tabari, Abu Thawr, and Dawud Adh-Dhahiri allowed for females to lead men in prayer.29 Some modern scholars use this interpretation to allow for females to lead men in prayer in the confine of their homes, if the males lack the qualifications to lead the prayer.30 The relevant point here is that the prayer was a private matter, conducted in the confines of Umm Waraqa�s home, limited to the inhabitants of her house.

Were one to reject this first line of reasoning, a second possibility is that the people being led in prayer came from the area surrounding Umm Waraqa�s home. This is the interpretation preferred by Reda. It has a basis in narrations from the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him. In the hadith of �Itban b. Malik, it is related that Ahli�d-Dar used to gather there �fathaba fi�l-bayt Rijalun min ahli�d-Dar. Ibn Hajar mentions in his commentary on this hadith that Ahli�d-Dar refers to the people of the neighborhood �al-Mahallah.31

Based on this understanding, it is not unreasonable to interpret Ahla Dariha, in the hadith of Umm Waraqa, as the people of her �area,� as Reda does. However, we are not left to guess as to who those people are. Imam ad-Daraqutni�s narration of this hadith mentions that Umm Waraqa was ordered to lead her women in prayer �wa ta�umma Nisa�aha.32 Hence, if the people praying with Umm Waraqa were from the surrounding area, they were all women, as Imam ad-Daraqutni�s version of the hadith makes clear.

Based on this second line of reasoning, we have to accept that they were women, in accords with an interpretive principle, �There is no room for speculation when transmitted evidence exists.�33 Here the text specifically states, �her women.� Ad- Daraqutni�s version would clarify a potentially vague expression in the other versions.

A third possibility, also based on joining between the majority narration and ad Daraqutni�s version of the hadith, would lead us to understand that the people of Umm Waraqa�s house were all women. Hence, Ahla Dariha (the people of her house) being led in prayer were women. There is no transmitted evidence to the contrary, as the opinion that Ahla Dariha were the two servants and the mu�adhdhin, mentioned above, is an assumption. In al-Mughni, Ibn Qudama al-Maqdisi mentions the incumbency of accepting this third interpretation.34 God knows best.

This latter understanding that Umm Waraqa only led women in prayer is strengthened by two ancillary evidences:

1)     The numerous narrations mentioning that �Aisha, Umm Salama, and other female Companions led all women congregations;35

2)     and the fact that when the Prophet, peace and blessings of God upon him, established a  mosque in the house of �Itban b. Malik, the congregation was all male �Rijalun (men) min ahli�d-Dar. It would therefore make perfect sense for the Prophet to establish an all female congregation elsewhere.

Summary and Rulings

Based on the hadith of Umm Waraqa, its possible interpretations, and the other

ahadith that mention women leading the prayer during the prophetic epoch, the Sunni jurists have deduced the following rulings:

1. The Shafi�i and Hanbali schools allow for a woman to lead other women in prayer without any restrictions. She can lead such prayers in the mosque or other places. The Hanafis permit a woman to lead other women in prayer. However, they hold it to be disliked.36 All three of these schools stipulate that the woman leading the prayer should stand in the middle of the front row, without being in front of the women praying along with her. This is based on the description of the prayer led by �Aisha and Umm Salama. The Malikis hold that a woman cannot lead other women in the prayer.37

2. Of the three Sunni schools that hold it permissible for a woman to lead other women in prayer, none of them hold it permissible to lead men. Although there is a minority opinion in the Hanbali school which permits a woman to lead men in Tarawih, if certain conditions prevail, providing she stands behind them.38

3. Imam an-Nawawi mentions the following ruling in the Majmu�, �If a woman leads a man or men in prayer, the prayer of the men is invalid. As for her prayer, and the prayer of the women praying with her, it is sound.�39 As for Jumu�ah, he mentions the following, ��if a woman leads men in the Jumu�ah prayer, there are two rulings [concerning her prayer]. They have been mentioned by al-Qadi Abu Tayyib in his Ta�liq, the preponderant opinion is that her prayer is invalid, the second is that it is lawfully begun as the noon prayer.�40

4. Some modern scholars hold it permissible for a woman to lead men in prayer within the confines of her house, if there are no men qualified to lead the prayer.41

5. Imams Abu Thawr, Dawud adh-Dhahiri, and at-Tabari, whose legal schools have been defunct for centuries, are related to have held it permissible for a woman to lead men in prayer. This opinion is also related from Imam Muzani, one of the principal narrators of the Shafi�i school. We will examine this issue in greater detail, as it serves as one of the evidences offered by Reda for the validity of unrestricted female prayer leadership.






Edited by rami
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 April 2005 at 10:21pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

>>>Will this now become censorship?  I have discussed the issue to which you have not answered.  You have not discussed where it is written in the Quran that a woman can not lead prayer.<<<

What you wrote is not Discussion it is the repation of the same idea you have had, that since the quran does not speak specificaly about it it must be permisable. You have ignored my points on this issue and simply repeated your self, a discussion would mean you adress those points specifically.

Your asumption that since the quran does not talk about the matter means it is permisable is not acceptable evidence among any scholar of Islam. Silence does not mean permisablility, there is plenty of evidence in the sunnah.

can you answer the following question and not simply ignore it.

Do you follow the sunnah of rasul allah or are you a Quran only person?

>>>Then you discussed things against women such as they must be women who want to become men.<<<

I dont know what you are talking about can you give me a specific quote?

>>>If that is the case, why is it that a moderator is taking part in the discussing and making it a personal case instead of an objective one regarding women leading prayer?  Is that fair within the discussion?<<<

Moderators can participate in the discussion, there are no restrictions on this, the forum guidlines are clear and i moderat by them, therefor you can judge for your self if i unjustly edit your post. So far i have not said anything as a moderator so you accusation is false.

>>>I would think that you should come to an agreement that there is no such dictate in the Quran that a woman can not lead prayer.  That is the discussion, period.<<<

I have said the quran does not speak on the matter specifically. This is not the discussion though the discussion is whether women can lead men in prayer!

Evidence from the Quran and Sunnah is acceptable not simply the Quran. The idea that the quran contradicts the sunnah is rediculous so no the Quran is not formost above the sunnah the way you are saying, the sunnah explains the Quran.

But nay, by your Lord, they shall not believe until they make you judge of what is in dispute between them and find within themselves no dislike of that which you decide, and submit with full submission} (4:65)

"O believers! Obey Allah and the Messenger when he calls you to what quickens you" (8:24)

Allah himself in the Quran is telling us to follow the sunnah of rasul allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam), there is plenty of evidence in the Sunnah that women can not lead the prayer.





Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 April 2005 at 7:38am
Originally posted by Sis Ummah Sis Ummah wrote:

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

it may look quite obvious to follow sunnah, the established way rather than the exceptional command or saying. Kindly correct me, if I am wrong. Allah knows the best.

The Quran is foremost.  And there exists nothing that states a woman can not lead prayer.

I think I am clearly comparing between Sunnah and the quoted hadiths from Um-Warqah only because we have been told that there is nothing about the issue in Quran. So reminding of this fact (The Quran is foremost) again is not understood.

Now coming to your point

Originally posted by Sis Ummah Sis Ummah wrote:

The Prophet �commanded� her, Umm Waraqah, to lead prayers.

I think, comes into the category of 'commands to a certian individual untill or unless it is established through some other established sources that this command became the established practise among more general population right in the time of prophet Mohammad. So your quote from the same hadith

 

Originally posted by Sis Ummah Sis Ummah wrote:

No one at that time, would set up their own mosque, complete with mu�adhdhin, without either the Prophet�s express command or permission.

needs another independant source of reference to substaniate the matter. In the absence of such a source it would always put doubt that this "command" of prophet had any general effects on the muslims outside the house of um-warqah. I think its time to refer to the whole of the hadith to look more closely on it. Here it is from one of the internet sources "

Narrated Umm Waraqah daughter of Nawfal:

When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) proceeded for the Battle of Badr, I said to him: Apostle of Allah allow me to accompany you in the battle. I shall act as a nurse for patients. It is possible that Allah might bestow martyrdom upon me. He said: Stay at your home. Allah, the Almighty , will bestow martyrdom upon you.

The narrator said: Hence she was called martyr. She read the Qur'an. She sought permission from the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) to have a mu'adhdhin in her house. He, therefore, permitted her (to do so).

She announced that her slave and slave-girl would be free after her death. One night they went to her and strangled her with a sheet of cloth until she died, and they ran away.

Next day Umar announced among the people, "Anyone who has knowledge about them, or has seen them, should bring them (to him)."

Umar (after their arrest) ordered (to crucify them) and they were crucified. This was the first crucifixion at Medina."

Before critically analysing the hadith myself, I must make my disclaimer that I am not at all a scholar of hadith, neither I have any authority on the subject. My analysis is solely through my own observation of the contents of the hadith in english translation that has been reproduced from an islamic internet site. Having said all this, I do observe that the contents of this hadith have two different narrators, the first narrator is "umm Warqah" herself as the title shows, however, the second part of it is by some other person (not identified with the contents of the hadith nor before it) who is narrating the incident as to what happened after the death of "Umm-Warqah". Merely on this basis, I think there is sufficient reason to call for independant source of reference which could establish the fact that the practise of leading the prayer by "Umm-Warqah" was for general population of her clan or tribe or area etc. Rest, Allah knows the best.

Originally posted by Sis Ummah Sis Ummah wrote:

Yet today, all who lead congregational prayers or perform the adhan (call to prayers) do so without the Prophet�s express command, since the Prophet has long passed away.

Why would it be any different for any woman today?

I am totally confused with your statement (do so without the prophet's express command), what idea are you trying to sell here?

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