Danish drawings

I have seen reports on Danish TV and papers that they where published by an Egypt tabloid in October.

Hi Shams Zaman, I don't know who Mr. Daniel Pipes is. Or who Mr. Rose (Cultural editor of Jyllandsposten) has as fan. Mr Rose is not the only one at Jyllandsposten responsible for publishing the drawings. He too has a boss. Mr. Rose was sent on a forced, indefinite vacation by his boss, a week or so ago.

Your theory makes no sense to me. If Jyllandsposten or Mr. Rose where doing some campaign with some evil purpose. I would expect them to work a bit harder to create this situation.

Jyllandsposten published once. The drawings has not been been published in Denmark since.

The big problems started shortly after the Muslim leaders and Imans went to Middle East with the drawings. And extra drawings. This does not mean they wished all these problems.

The problem is that the drawings where published, no Danes realized there was an insult, many Muslims where insulted. I have never heard even a hint in Denmark, that this would be a fabriced intended insult. Not a single word. Not from any media or not from anybody I have talked to.

You say:

"Today in Pakistan as well the ignorant peple fell to the plot of these conspirators and damaged the property by burning it down and two people died due to these clashes."

The way I read this in the context of your fabricated insult theory, you make it sound like violent protestors are victims to some evil conspiration. The purpose of the conspiration would be to provoce violent protests. I think violent protestors have to take full responsability for their own actions, and should be held accountable for their actions by law. This does not mean I wish them killed, or harmed in any way.

Ambassadors (8 or 11 can't recall) requested a meeting with the Danish prime minister in October last year. To protest against the drawings. He did not meet them. They received a response in the form of a letter.

The prime minister says that this was determined to be polite and diplomatically correct way to respond. My impression is that they not just would express concerns. But also would demand that the goverment take action against the newspaper. Since he knew he would not be able to, under Danish law, to interfere with the newspaper. A letter was sent instead.

For this he has been heavenly critizised in Denmark. Right after this "refused" meeting, for instance. 22 former Danish ambassadors published an open letter protestating against this. The former ambassadors did not feel the prime minister had treated the issue the Muslim ambassadors raised, with proper seriousness. They said he should have meet them instead of sending a letter.

Liberty posted:

"Yes, Muslims do not differentiate between politics and religion. In Islam their is no separation of the church and state as in western democracies. Everything that Muslims do and think both in everday life and in the running of the state is intricately linked with Islamic thought and the fear and obedience to God.

If this is the case, I do not understand how muslims and democracies can co-exist.  Please explain."

Read a book or 2 on Turkey. Thats one current example that pops to my mind.

Wrangel wrote: I don't know who Mr. Daniel Pipes is.

Daniel Pipes is to Muslims what Joseph Goebbels was to the Jews.

Just a couple of reflections. There has been so many posts here now, its hard to digest them all. Please add "my view" to any sentense I post. I can't speak for everybody in Denmark.

Just to return to why I am here, what I think I have learned . Or in other words what the facts are, in the view of the drawings Jyllandsposten published.

Jyllandsposten posted the drawings with the purpose of raise debate on self-censorship in media. For anyone willing to listen Jyllandsposten has said, they would never have done this if they realized the consequenes this decision would bring.

This is how close to an appology you will ever come from Jyllandsposten.

Nor the Danish goverment or the Danish people has any influence on what Jyllandsposten publish. Only Danish law, newspaper ethics and self-imbosed cencorswhip decides what is wrong or right to publish.

They published September 30. Late January all hell broke loose.

I don't care why it tok 4 months for all hell to break loose. The fact that so many Muslims has been so deeply offened is enough for me.

From this my conclusions are several.

From morale basis I see that it is wrong for a newspaper, or anybody else to insult Muslims, religious groups, other groups.  

From practical purposes, let me just say, I don't want anything even close to this, ever happening again.

Mind you, religious groups often present views that I find highly questionable. If religious groups are not not be insulted. Then must religious groups show the very same restraints. There is no reason for religious groups, not to show the same respect for other groups, that they request.

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Ketchup with his latest post raised two issues that I have been thinking about. First one is easy. I believe there is a missunderstanding by non-Muslims, that Muslims don't have humor.

The movie "Life of Brian" was banned in Norway, based on legislation to not insult religious groups. Lack of legislation to protect relgious groups in Denmark, comes from oppression from extreme christian groups. I think Norwegian law since has changed.

Until a few years ago, there was (well, its still there) a christian holiday in Denmark. Called the "Big Preyers" day. By law everything was closed. Extreme christians felt this day would have to be so very booring for everybody so everything was closed. After years, people had enough. Movie theaters where opened up anway. The law was abandoned. 

The other, this was brought on by somebody posting "filthy Danes". I have been thinking about why that remark made me angry. I have also spent some time understanding why the Danish cartoons makes Muslims angry. So far it is easier for me to understand why the Danish cartoons are insulting, then why "filthy Danes" insulting.

The "filthy Danes" I best understand. When I say I best understand, I mean I best understand my reaction. What the poster intended, I'm pretty clueless. If it was his intention to insult, or something taken out of context, part of his retorik, I don't know.

But as such, the formulation is very foriegn in my vocabularity. And viewed in the context of this thread. And specially in the context of the thread it was presented. It came is a lightening, suddenly out of the sky. And formulated in a way I am not used to. If he called all Danes idiots, I might have been upset. Now I was angry.

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Some additional observations.

I heard in interview on radio with a Saudi businessman. He expressed many dialoge seeking, fully understandable views. Then I was suprised to hear that he thought western laws that surpress freedom of speech on holocast, racial discrimination was hyprotical. I can only say, if we did not have these laws. If we did tolerate nazi views, the current problem would be a lot worse.

When the president of Iran publically goes out and denies holocast. Is beyond sanity. Nazis mercilessly murdered jews, gypsies, homosexuals, handicapped people and anybody who did not support their murdering. For an official representative of a country to make a statement like that. And to repeat this ... I just shake my head in sadness.

In Denmark we have had 2 attempts by right wing extremes to go demonstrating. Both has been quickly dismissed and stopped. There has been many peaceful demonstrations with participants from the entire spectra of Danish society, for peaceful dialog.

When we have laws that regulates nazi groups freedom of speech. It's because we have learned throughout decades that these groups thrive on misery, and feed of hatred. Making laws to surpress them is is not hyprocity, it is nessesity.

Edit add:

The fact that it has become clear to me that I no longer can visit all parts of the world, with the danger of being hurt, or simply being not wellcome, is a catastrophe. Muslims are wellcome to visit Denmark, I know of no restrictions enforced by any authorities, or by any groups that use violence Muslims that will prevent this. Estimated 200.000 Muslims live in Denmark. I have not heard a single complaint, that this has lead to any problems for any of these 200.000 persons. I have heard of no group in Denmark threatening them in any way.

My wife's 50 years anniversity is coming up late February. My suggestion was to goto Egypt for this. Her vote was Berlin, so of course, it was Berlin. I am happy she picked Berlin.

I would very much wellcome more Muslim participation in this thread. How can we move on? How can Danes contribute?

I realize that my posts has been a lot out myself, my views, and how this has impacted me personally. But it has severaly impacted me, emotionally, political thinking, my world has been shrinking, I have found good sane views where I thought I would find hostility, I have found hostility where I thought I would find warm wellcome. I am struggling to get through this in one piece. Just like anybody else I assume.

I also realize I must seem naive to most posters. I can assure you this is not the case. But in order to listen and to learn I must be naive. I must most of all trust that others are telling me the (or their) thruth.

Cynics might serve a purpose in everyday life, but not in crisis. Denmark is in its worst crisis now since being occupied by nazi Germany. We have to go back ~65 years, and occupation. Make no misstake about that. It may be a small crisis from your perspective, but from ours its very real.