Conversion to Christianity

Angel wrote: Mishmash, I have things to say to your 3 lastest posts but I cannot at the moment for a couple of reasons, when i can, i post else where.

Assalamu Alaikum:

The three posts were articles from scholars. My knowledge is very limited, but I believe that their opinion is correct. The Quran does not call for the death of anyone who commits apostacy. Since the Hadith are contradictory on this subject, then we must go back to Allah's words, the Quran.

Angel wrote: AhmadJoyia wrote: But the fact of the matter is, that Quran specifically states that there is no compulsion. If we forget about these verses, and what about other verses, you just forget those to concentrate on others that you most perfer ?

OK, here I was refering to evidence from "whole" of Quran Vs all other sources. Now, do kindly remind me of what "other" verses from Quran are you refering to pertaining the issue of apostasy in Islam?

Bismillah irrahman irrahim

Assalamu alaikum

256. There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.  Surah Baqarah

There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''

It was reported that the Ansar were the reason behind revealing this Ayah, although its indication is general in meaning. Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas said [that before Islam], "When (an Ansar) woman would not bear children who would live, she would vow that if she gives birth to a child who remains alive, she would raise him as a Jew. When Banu An-Nadir (the Jewish tribe) were evacuated [from Al-Madinah], some of the children of the Ansar were being raised among them, and the Ansar said, `We will not abandon our children.' Allah revealed,

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)''

Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man,

("Embrace Islam.'' The man said, "I dislike it.'' The Prophet said, "Even if you dislike it.'')

First, this is an authentic Hadith, with only three narrators between Imam Ahmad and the Prophet . However, it is not relevant to the subject under discussion, for the Prophet did not force that man to become Muslim. The Prophet merely invited this man to become Muslim, and he replied that he does not find himself eager to become Muslim. The Prophet said to the man that even though he dislikes embracing Islam, he should still embrace it, `for Allah will grant you sincerity and true intent.' (tafsir ibn kathir)

Now even if u want to imply it in its general meaning ok, then there is no compulsion in the religion.  Now every one wants a right of free speech? What happened in recent past? Now every one also want free will to choose, so why do they get punished when they choose few things? Reason being every freedom has boundaries to the right of next person, community or whatever is relevant in that particular matter.  Now its Allah�s right to be recognized, he blesses every human being with uncountable blessings, gives them chances throughout life to come to truth, even though Allah swt has put in each individual a basic sense of existence of Lord above and high, He still helps them out throughout life to identify him.  Now people who choose not to open up their eyes to this fact still do acts which are termed good, and Allah swt rewards them with happiness and every thing of world being most Just and Kind.  But when Allah swt blesses a person with light of faith and then he fails to control his whims and desires and follows shaytan that�s when all his past good deeds go to waste bcos that�s when he has transgressed all the limits (this particular line not my view its ruling of Imam Hanifah), now what u think a worldly person would say if u ask em bout greatest crime, actually even majority of muslims would say the same thing. Its killing another person, in American law execution is still there for killing another person right? (thank Allah swt for that otherwise we would have to explain why islam is so harsh, AGAIN)  Now Holy Quran states in two places which r in my knowledge �shirk is worse than killing� Surah Baqarah 191 & 217.  All this I mentioned to tell u how grave the matter of disbelief is and specially throwing it away after u been blessed with faith.

Now this is all I can understand from Holy Quran but then its so different from ur understanding is it not? That�s why u need to follow basic sets of rules to understand Holy Quran, one of the rules of explanation is there is no contradiction within Holy Quran so to help us with matters we have Sahih Ahadith, now when u put Ahadith and Sunnah into matters u need to understand that same rule is here as well, there is no contradiction between Holy Quran and Ahadith and Sunnah as there is very famous saying of Ayeshah (ra) that when someone asked her about character of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) she said �it is that of Quran�

These are ahadith from famous collections

1. Any person (i.e., Muslim) who has changed his religion, kill him (agreed upon)
2. Abdullah ibn Masud reports: The Messenger of God stated: In no way is it permitted to shed the blood of a Muslim who testifies that "there is no god except God" and "I am the Apostle of God" except for three crimes: a. he has killed someone and his act merits retaliation; b. he is married and commits adultery; c. he abandons his religion and is separated from the community.  Sahih al-bukhari
3. Aisha reports:The Messenger of God stated that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim other than for the following reasons: a. although married, he commits adultery or b. after being a Muslim he chooses kufr, or c. he takes someone's life. Sahih al-bukhari
4. Uthman reports:I heard the Messenger of God saying that it is unlawful to shed the blood of a Muslim except in three situations: a. a person who, being a Muslim, becomes a kafir; b. one who after marriage commits adultery; c. one who commits murder apart from having an authorization to take life in exchange for another life.  Nasa�i

Abu Musa Ashari reports: The Prophet appointed and sent him (Abu Musa) as governor of Yemen. Then later he sent Muadh ibn Jabal as his assistant. When Muadh arrived there, he announced: People, I am sent by the Messenger of God for you. Abu Musa placed a cushion for him to be comfortably seated.  Meanwhile a person was presented who previously had been a Jew, then was a Muslim and then became a Jew. Muadh said: I will not sit unless this person is executed. This is the judgement of God and His Messenger. Muadh repeated the statement three times. Finally, when he was killed, Muadh sat.

When Mecca was conquered, Abdullah ibn Sad ibn Abi Sarh took refuge with Uthman ibn Affan. Uthman took him and they presented themselves to the Prophet, requesting: O Messenger of God, accept the allegiance of Abdullah. The Prophet lifted his head, looked in his direction and remained silent. This happened three times and he (the Prophet) only looked in his direction. Finally after three times he accepted his allegiance. Then he turned towards his Companions and said: Was there no worthy man among you who, when he saw me withholding my hand from accepting his allegiance, would step forward and kill this person? The people replied: O Messenger of God, we did not know your wish. Why did you not signal with your eyes? To this the Prophet replied: It is unbecoming of a Prophet to glance in a stealthy manner (both incidents could be found in any major seerah book)

These are incidents from time of Umar and Uthman (ra)

Abdullah ibn Masud was informed that in one of the mosques of the Banu Hanifah some people were testifying that Musaylimah was a messenger of God. Hearing this, Abdullah sent police to arrest and bring them. When they were brought before him, they all repented and promised never to do it again. Abdullah let all of them go except one, Abdullah ibn al-Nawahah, whom he punished by death. The people said: How is it that you have given two conflicting verdicts in the same case? Abdullah replied that Ibn al-Nawahah was the very man who has been sent by Musaylimah as an ambassador to the Prophet (Muhammad). I was present at that time. Another man, Hajar ibn Wathal, was also with him as a partner in this diplomatic mission. Muhammad asked both of them: Do you bear witness that I am the Messenger of God? They both responded by asking: Do you bear witness that Musaylimah is the Messenger of God? Hearing that, Muhammad replied: If it were permitted to execute the delegates of a political mission, I would execute you both. After relating this event, Abdullah said: For this reason I punished Ibn al-Nawahah by death.  It is clear that this event occurred during the time of Umar when Abdullah ibn Masud was chief judge of Kufah under him.

Some men who were spreading the claim of Musaylimah were captured in Kufah. Uthman was informed in writing about it. He wrote in response that the true religion (din-i haqq) and the confession: "There is no god except God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God", should be presented before them. Whoever accepts it and reveals his rejection of Musaylimah should be released. Whoever upholds the religion of Musaylimah should be executed (both incidents in Tahawi)

Now this is from Muwatta Imam Malik

From Zayd ibn Aslam, Malik has reported that the Apostle of God declared: Whoever changes his religion should be executed. Malik said about this tradition: As far as we can understand this command of the prophet means that the person who leaves Islam to follow another way, but conceals his kufr and continues to manifest Islamic belief, as is the pattern of the Zindiqs and others like them, should be executed after his guilt has been established. He should not be asked to repent because the repentance of such persons cannot be trusted. But the person who has left Islam and publicly chooses to follow another way should be requested to repent. If he repents, good. Otherwise, he should be executed

Now it is a known factor that all Prophets are immuned from sins and errors against Allah�s law so if this particular Ayah which every one loves to mention in this case would have implied in this particular ruling then there was no chance of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) saying or doing anything against it.  People of knowledge explain the reason that why Allah swt gave his name of Rahim to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw), is due to the fact that people of his Ummah who don�t embrace islam still get to live and enjoy the pleasures of this life unlike previous generations who were punished straight away, Im sure u are aware of what happened to Bani Israel when they worshipped calf after Musa (as) went to mount toor, the guilty ones were killed by their brethren even though they realized that they had done wrong and wanted to repent and Allah told Musa (as) that there repentance was willingly agreeing to die from the hands of muslims, now what do u think about a person who has forsaken his deen and has no sense of shame or repentance?

Twice before this topic was brought up and I kept silent cos I don�t have enuf knowledge or ability to explain it and another reason cos no muslims were involved, this time I spoke cos I felt us muslims should go beyond �my intelligence tells me or I think� n know what happened in the times which we should keep as role model, I don�t want to have debate on this matter due to inadequacy of my knowledge and intelligence, Alhamdulillah I always want to follow the hadith in which Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) said that Faith of a believer is never complete until he likes for his muslim brother what he likes for himself.  So if you still think those ahadith are not strong then may Allah swt guide me and every one to his path  ameen

Wassalam

Sis Fatima, no excuse of ahadith can play a role when they are found totally against the basic principles of Quran, especially in the case of hadud laws, where usually the apostasy is put in by some traditional scholars. The very basic requirement of "hadud" laws are "only from Quran". Here is an excellent article on the issue of apostasy in Islam by Louay Safi, along with its comments upon the ahadith that you also quoted. http://lsinsight.org/articles/Current/Apostasy.htm

Hopefully this shall suffice for any logical mind.