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Topic ClosedConversion to Christianity

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 1:24pm

Originally posted by Fatima Fatima wrote:

im not trying to brush this matter under the carpet, only thing which i was trying to do was to say it to muslim brothers and sisters, not to go so far in battle of 'im right and u r wrong' and say about ur Lord or His ruling something which we have no full comprehension of.

My dear sis, kindly note the difference between �trying to understand logically� and �obey without understanding�. I think, I prefer to be in the first category than in the later one. That is the total purpose of this discussion and not �battle of 'im right and u r wrong' � 

Originally posted by Fatima Fatima wrote:

Brother alhamdulillah Allah swt has made Holy Quran easy to understand but for people of knowledge, Ibn Abbas (ra) was best in the understanding of Holy Quran among all sahaba (ra), it is related from him that he was among few people who knew the number of ashabe kahaf and he was the among very few if not the only person who could understand what Allah swt meant when Surah Nasr was revealed, the rest of Sahaba (ra) used to ask him even though he was a kid in comparison to them and they knew bout the dealing and ruling of Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) more than him. those people used to ask and tell each other about each and every single thing Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) said, did or approved of by keeping quiet, but yet they had to ask Ibn Abbas or other sahaba (ra) for clarification of Holy Quran, Now brother if u r any1 in this forum could say to me that u know about every major book of ahadith (im not saying u know every single hadith), u have full knowledge of what was said when and where by Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) and how strong the chain of narrations is, then may Allah swt grant u best place with Himself and im sorry

but if u telling me that there is a bigger scholar in this day n age than Iman Hanifa, Imam Shafi'i, Imam Malik and Imam Ahmed or any other major imam then thats ur matter I dont believe that bcos even Holy Quran mentions that those who are Muqarrabin of Allah swt are mostly from first generation,��.

First of, sis it would be highly appreciated if you can break down your comments in small understandable sentences than continuing in one. No offence intended. Now as far as your allusion to the scholarship of the all Ashab is concerned, kindly note that this is not under discussion at all. No one is doubting their capabilities at all. However, one must not forget that even these Ashab, never presented anything without evidence in the form of Quran or Sunnah of Prophet Mohammad. So, for example, if Hz. Ibn Abbass brings in the �number of ashabe Kahaf� without quoting any of these two sources (which I doubt), there is little reason to believe in him, whatever the level of scholarship he might have possessed other wise. I hope this is quite logical to understand. Isn�t it? So simple virtue of being from earliest generation is that they had the first hand knowledge about the authentic source of information. If they don�t present, or someone on their behalf don�t present, that knowledge as how did they arrive at certain decision, there is little reason to rely on their testimonies. This is not to undermine their status, but to realize that such testimonies, attributed towards them, might well have been contorted by others through the passage of time in centuries. So every such testimony needs to evaluated, irrespective who is the initiator of it, based upon the above mentioned sources in Islam. 

Originally posted by Fatima Fatima wrote:

there are plenty of ahadith about this matter but im sad to say people start doubting their authenticity the minute it dont suite them,�..
I am sorry for your sadness, but honestly speaking, I have not undermined their authenticity per say, but their interpretation by the later generations especially once it comes in clear contrast with the verses of Quran. I shall give you the example from your own quoted incidents in early Islamic history.

Originally posted by Fatima Fatima wrote:

Imam Malik neva use to say anything bout a saying which was related to him and it did not meet his criteria for being a hadith as he used to say what am i going to say to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) on Day of Judgement and how am i going to face him (saw) if I said about his words that they are not his only bcos i did not have enuf mind to have full comprehension. there is another hadith which mention Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) saying follow Abubakr and Umar (ra) after me,
I think, I have already responded about this in my above stated reply. No one is questioning their abilities but looking at the evidence on which they might have based their opionins. 

 

Originally posted by Fatima Fatima wrote:

Abubakr (ra) waged a war against apostates and in the time of Umar (ra) about whom it is said that Allah swt had given him quality of being a best Judge, u cant find any single case with a different judgement.  Allah swt gave exceptions to Sayyidina Muhammad (saw) in many case due to nature his mission but find me a single example from time of rightly guided caliphs or few 100 years after that.
My dear sis, it is our duty to analyze each and every report that reaches us as an evidence for the case under discussion and i.e. Apostasy. Do you intend to say that Hz. Abu Bakr went against the apostates or they had other more sever crimes of revolt against the newly established state of Madina right after the death of Prophet Mohammad. In doing so, they not only refused to pay state tax (Zakat) but instigated others to follow their suit. Had they only changed their faith, I don�t think, Hz. Abu Bakr would have gone against them. Even in this situation of revolt etc., many senior Ashaba were either against such an action by Hz. Abu Bakr or at the least, were un-decided. Can you let me know the reasons why such a hesitation reflected by them, if it was simply a matter of apostasy? But since it wasn�t just a apostasy issue but a clear revolt, thus majority of the Muslims supported the decision of Hz. Abu Bakr. Kindly think about it,

Originally posted by Fatima Fatima wrote:

now the matter of abrogation, brother Allah swt mentions it in Holy Quran himself that He makes rule and He has authority to abrogate them, see verses for changing the direction of Qiblah, jews believe that when some thing is revealed, thats it and no change and dont believe in abrogation so please dont fall in that

May Allah swt guide us al to right path and help us attain his pleasure. ameen

Wassalam

Again, my dear sis, your example is totally un related to the issue and lacks the basic understanding of the verses of Quran about abrogation. �Changing of direction of Qiblah� doesn�t constitute �abrogation� in itself but only when you show us where in the Quran do you find verses asking Muslims to pray in the direction of Jerusalam. Even then, what ever abrogation had to take place in the Quran, it took place right before its final form, the form which Prophet Mohammad recited twice to Angel Gabriel, before his death. There are no abrogated verses in the Quran, I think. Those of which people usually cite in case of �wine� etc it must be realized that all such verses are perfectly applicable even now, but of course depends upon situation to situation. If you have any questions to debate about theory of �abrogation�, I would love to hear them and discuss them, but not in this topic but as another topic. Kindly don�t feel that I am avoiding the topic, but to remain focused on the  present discussion. May Allah help us in our own building of faith through logic rather than merely �taqleed� of others. Amin.

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by DavidC DavidC wrote:

Abduhl Rahman converted sixteen years ago when he lived in the west. 
A little curious to know, can you provide your source of this info, bro?
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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 1:33pm

Actually, he converted 16 years ago while working for a Christian Relief organization according to an article by the Associated Press during the crisis.  He later moved to Germany and lived their for 10 years, returning to Afganistan to obtain custody of his two daughters.  That's when his inlaws turned him in for apostacy.

In the end, it was a custody battle. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 1:46pm
So, do you mean to say, he was  first converted to Christianity while working for a Christian relief organization and then moved to Germany? Hmm!! Can you let us know, as a guess if don't know for sure, as where else this relief organization could possibly be working, if not in Afghanistan/Pakistan, as far as he is concerned?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 1:49pm

Let me see if I can find more...

 

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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 1:55pm

Afghan court dismisses case against Christian convert, officials say

By DANIEL COONEY
The Associated Press

KABUL, Afghanistan � An Afghan court on Sunday dismissed a case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity because of a lack of evidence and he will be released soon, officials said.

The announcement came as U.S.-backed President Hamid Karzai faced mounting foreign pressure to free Abdul Rahman, a move that risked angering Muslim clerics here who have called for him to be killed.

An official closely involved with the case told The Associated Press that it had been returned to the prosecutors for more investigation, but that in the meantime, Rahman would be released.

"The court dismissed today the case against Abdul Rahman for a lack of information and a lot of legal gaps in the case," the official said Sunday, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the matter.

"The decision about his release will be taken possibly tomorrow," the official added. "They don't have to keep him in jail while the attorney general is looking into the case."

Abdul Wakil Omeri, a spokesman for the Supreme Court, confirmed that the case had been dismissed because of "problems with the prosecutors' evidence."

He said several of Rahman's family members have testified that the 41-year-old has mental problems. "It is the job of the attorney general's office to decide if he is mentally fit to stand trial," he told AP.

A Western diplomat, also declining to be identified because of the sensitivity of the case, said questions were being raised as to whether Rahman would stay in Afghanistan or go into exile in a foreign country.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said she could not confirm that an Afghan court had dismissed the case and stressed the U.S. needs to respect the sovereignty of Afghanistan, which she called a "young democracy."

"We have our history of conflicts that had to be worked out after a new constitution. And so the Afghans are working on it. But America has stood solidly for religious freedom as a bedrock, the bedrock, of democracy, and we'll see." Rice said Sunday on NBC's Meet the Press.

Asked if American Christian missionaries should be encouraged to go to Afghanistan, Rice said: "I think that Afghans are pleased to get the help that they can get" but added "we need to be respectful of Afghan sovereignty."

Rahman has been prosecuted under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for converting 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He was arrested last month and charged with apostasy.

Muslim clerics had threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if the government freed him. They said he clearly violated Islamic Shariah law by rejecting Islam.

The case against Rahman put Karzai in an awkward position.

While the U.S., Britain and other countries that prop up his government have demanded the trial be dropped, Karzai has had to be careful not to offend Islamic sensibilities at home and alienate religious conservatives who wield considerable power.

Rahman had been held at a detention facility in central Kabul since his arrest, but he was moved to the notorious Policharki Prison just outside Kabul on Friday after threats were made against him by other inmates, prison warden Gen. Shahmir Amirpur told AP.

Policharki is a high-security prison housing some 2,000 inmates, including about 350 Taliban and al Qaeda militants who were blamed for inciting a riot there late last month that killed six people.

"We are watching him constantly. This is a very sensitive case so he needs high security," Amirpur said in an interview in his office in a crumbling building inside the jail.

Rahman is being held in a cell by himself next to the office of a senior prison guard, the warden said. He showed the AP the outside of Rahman's cell door, but refused to allow reporters to speak to him or see him.

He said Rahman had been asking guards for a Bible but that they did not have any to give him.

Rahman, meanwhile, said he was fully aware of his choice and was ready to die for it, according to an interview published Sunday in Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

"I am serene. I have full awareness of what I have chosen. If I must die, I will die," Abdul Rahman told the Rome daily, responding to questions sent to him via a human rights worker who visited him in prison.

"Somebody, a long time ago, did it for all of us," he added in a clear reference to Jesus.

Rahman also told the Italian newspaper that his family � including his ex-wife and teenage daughters � reported him to the authorities three weeks ago.

He said he made his choice to become a Christian "in small steps," after he left Afghanistan 16 years ago. He moved to Pakistan, then Germany. He tried to get a visa in Belgium.

"In Peshawar I worked for a humanitarian organization. They were Catholics," Rahman said. "I started talking to them about religion, I read the Bible, it opened my heart and my mind."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/world/14192635.htm

I could not find the name of the organization.  Could be Catholic Charities, could be another group?

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 2:08pm

Ok! Now as far as I understood from this narration is that Mr. Rahman converted to Christianity while working for the Christian relief organization in Pakistan for Afghan refugees 16 years ago before leaving Afghanistan. Hence his conversion took place, according to him, in Pakistan. Then he moved to Germany as a Christian and not as Muslim. Am I correct to understand as opposed to what Bro DavidC is trying to say?

It seems to corroborate my ideas that these Christian organizations are doing great relief work on one hand, and playing with the sensitivities of the people on the other hand. Though their relief doesn't seem to be conditional, I must admit, but people do get mislead when they are in miseries, especially when distorted facts and figures are presented to them.

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Angela View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 April 2006 at 2:15pm

Ahmad,

Would you rather they didn't help at all????  I'm sure the Muslim community will step up and take over in the charitable work.  And they aren't allowed to talk about what they believe?  If I'm a Christian, I'll will say I'm Christian.  He worked very closely with these people.  I'm sure he had many late night conversations with these people.  Does that mean he was targetted for conversion?  That's entirely possible...its also entirely possible he got curious and decided on his own.  How many reverts to Islam start that way?  So, you'll blame one mans concisious choice on a greater conspiracy.  Cute.

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