Gabriel: "Read" or "Recite?"

Ibnuarradi

I did not explain the meaning of Hanif because I expected it was known in a discussion on Islam.
Hanifs are pre-Islamic Arabs who were attracted by monotheism or became monotheists without adhering to Judaism or Christianity.
It is just a supposition of mine that Muhammad may have been in touch or belonged to a Hanif group, of course until someone proves that he did not meet such people.

Your quote: "Where there is similarities between Quran and the Jewish or Christian scriptures, there are many dissimilarities....if the Quran was derived from the Jews or Christian, the Prophet would have agreed to Jews and Christian and will not be pointing out to them that they had deviated from their true teachings of Monotheism."

Excuse me but that is not an argument. You can borrow ideas and words and modify them to your liking.
Allow me to adopt the position of Islam drawing from Judaism and Christianity rather than directly from God. Those two religions being older and being around in Arabia, plain commonsense tells you that they are the origins of Islam. There are also elements from Arabic paganism that have passed into Islam, or folktales from Jewish or Christian legends, so I think it is more logical to stick to a borrowing scenario.
That is only my opinion and that of non-religious scholars who study the Quran as an historical document. It is only when a problem cannot be explained by commonsense that an extraordinary solution may be considered.

Abrah

Most scholars believe that the Prophet could not read or write, so what? Was he deaf or dumb that he could not pick up discussions and repeat them afterwards? I believe he was a very intelligent person.

Cyril wrote: Ibnuarradi I did not explain the meaning of Hanif because I expected it was known in a discussion on Islam. Hanifs are pre-Islamic Arabs who were attracted by monotheism or became monotheists without adhering to Judaism or Christianity. It is just a supposition of mine that Muhammad may have been in touch or belonged to a Hanif group, of course until someone proves that he did not meet such people.

I do know the meaning of Hanifs...it is just that I'm so use of asking for one source of belief (I do remember someone here ever mentioned that "...basing faith off of the words of a man who was not there to know is less than convincing....")...nevertheless, that supposition is fair enough if that is coming from you or from those of similar opinion

Cyril wrote: Excuse me but that is not an argument. You can borrow ideas and words and modify them to your liking.

Again, a fair statement....I guess, the same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (Pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.

Cyril wrote: Allow me to adopt the position of Islam drawing from Judaism and Christianity rather than directly from God. Those two religions being older and being around in Arabia, plain commonsense tells you that they are the origins of Islam. There are also elements from Arabic paganism that have passed into Islam, or folktales from Jewish or Christian legends, so I think it is more logical to stick to a borrowing scenario. That is only my opinion and that of non-religious scholars who study the Quran as an historical document. It is only when a problem cannot be explained by commonsense that an extraordinary solution may be considered.

Point noted, and again that is a fair statement coming from you...I guess such an opinion will make more sense and more convincing if we believe Arabs during the time have never thought to think the way you think

Moving forward, I do believe that the day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. And the fact that the extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them; more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years. Furthermore, it is worth to note that the enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim (that he was a liar or borrow a belief from Jews or Christian, etc)

Anyway, Allah knows best
wassalam

 

Ibnuarradi,

From you: "Again, a fair statement....I guess, the same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (Pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament."

That is a good rebuttal. Excellent!  Even all the gospel writers copied from the teachings of Judaism and it's Holy Scriptures. It went to the extent that almost the entire Jewish Bible was copied and attached to the New testament.

This was not some just little copying! IT is taking an entire book of others and attach instead of cut, copy and paste.

BR & Salaams

BMZ

 

Cyril

From you: "I cannot believe you when you say that God's Word never changes. God in the Quran is very similar to God in the Jewish Bible but much different from God in the New Testament."

I guess your original opinion here should stand too unchanged, that the Christians must have "borrow ideas and words and modify them to their liking"... 

From you: "..Giving me some original elements in the Quran, not known at the time, would be a better way to prove your point..."

As I had stated earlier, there are many original elements in Quran, but when discussing with "people of the books", we are encouraged to start with a common ground...

Nevertheless, I do find it is hard to believe such opinion which you'd mentioned wasn't raised to the Prophet during his time....I guess from you it has to take a few hundreds years later for one to reach a conclusion that he "could have copied it"

We do offer a more logical conclusion...and trust that it was accepted from during the time of occurance (by the wise men of that era) and up to now (by the wise men of this era) - that the Quran comes from same source containing the same key message...

Allah knows best
wassalam

 

Edited by ibnuarradi