Gabriel: "Read" or "Recite?" |
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Cyril
Senior Member Joined: 08 May 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Ibnuarradi
Christians did not borrow anything from Judaism because they were originally Jews. You do not borrow from your own religion. What they did was to interpret verses from the Old Testament, that is the Jewish Bible, to corroborate their belief in the incarnation of God as Jesus. In my opinion Christians did borrow but from neighbouring pagan religions. When you study religions you realize that religious ideas do not fall from heaven but are reinterpretations or borrowings of already existing religions. If there are many original elements in the Quran could you cite a few of them? You say that the Quran "comes from same source containing the same key message". Any book saying that there is only one God can be said to contain a divine message. What is impossible to accept to non-Muslims is to state that folktales written by some Jewish rabbis or some Christian or Greek storytellers are God's words. Regards. Bmzsp Your quote: "But we can't compare Islam with those of the most modern times". Could you tell me why? There are a number of striking similarities between Mormonism and Islam that it deserves to be compared. Your quote: "In terms of God's words, whether it was in the 7th Century or the First Century or a thousand Centuries before in Noah's times, the message and Commandments were the same." If you think about Judaism and Islam I more or less agree with you, although you should explain why a number of prophets are not mentioned in the Quran. Your quote: "For the Jews, Jesus and Muhammad are both like David Koraish" For the Jews Jesus and Muhammad are rather religious figures from other religions. What is that name Koraish appended to David? It reminds me of the Hebrew name of the Persian king Kurosh the Great (aka Cyrus) or the Quraysh Arabic tribe to which Muhammad belonged. Your quote: "Thou shall love only thy Lord the God with all your heart, mind and soul. Now, that is the key message repeated by Jesus himself and Muhammad.." Do not make me believe that Jesus has become a Muslim or Muhammad a Christian. The key message of Jesus is much more than that: only through him and through the acceptance of his divinity can men be saved. You should not blur distinctions between the three utterly different figures of Jesus as seen by Christians, Muslims or Jews. Regards. |
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Mishmish
Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1694 |
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"When you study religions you realize that religious ideas do not fall from heaven but are reinterpretations or borrowings of already existing religions." I would hope that if you believe in God, you believe that religious ideas originate with the Word of God. Not the word of man. |
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It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Cyril
Senior Member Joined: 08 May 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Mishmish
Your quote:"I would hope that if you believe in God, you believe that religious ideas originate with the Word of God. Not the word of man." What you say is correct once you explain what and where is the Word of God. I think that holy scriptures are human fabrications, i.e word of man, so I would be much interested by your answer. |
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ibnuarradi
Newbie Joined: 26 April 2006 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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Hmm...it seems we somehow don't have a common agreement in the meaning of "borrowing".... Anyway, there is a site that discuss a lot in details concerning this "Borrowing theory": I extract some paragraphs from that site which I believe good to ask oneself when one consider this theory: 1. Why is it in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad(P)'s life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom Muhammad(P) might have learned all that? 2. It is known that Muhammad(P) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad(P)'s claim of revelation was sheer fabrication? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name the person whom they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion, changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil... etc. 3. Muhammad(P) was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterises tribal life in the desert. How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit ? 4. What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad(P) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings? 5. How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis? 6. It is known that some of the Qur'�nic revelations to Muhammad(P) in the presence of people. The Qur'�n was revealed over the span of 23 years, where then that was mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher of Muhammad(P)? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad(P) who was constantly surrounded by companions, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for 23 years without even being caught once? The answer to all these questions are never given. But the Christian missionaries' logic is that still Muhammad(P) borrowed from the Judeo-Christian sources even though there is no evidence to show. What you do not know, you do not have to show; just say it and it becomes so. Allah knows best
Edited by ibnuarradi |
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ibnuarradi
Newbie Joined: 26 April 2006 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 11 |
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It had been suggested by many early Western scholars of Islam that Jewish acquaintances of Muhammad were the reason behind a number of stories contained in the Qur'an. Perhaps the most common Jewish source that figures in the alleged borrowing is the 'midrashic commentary' Pirke de-Rabbi Eli`ezer. The following site discuss in details of this topic: An interesting extract from this site:.. "..According to Geiger, Tisdall and others, Muhammad "composed" various accounts found in the Qur'an using a source that had not yet been compiled until hundreds of years after his death!.." Allah knows best
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Cyril
Senior Member Joined: 08 May 2006 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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Ibnuarradi
For convenience sake I will answer your post by the number of each paragraph (from Islamic-Awareness): 1) First of all we do not have an abundance of historical material on Muhammad's life. All we have are hundreds or thousands of traditions that were put to writing decades or centuries after his death. Could you cite me a few documents dating from his lifetime? Of course it is a difficult task to trace the origins of the Quran because of the lack of reliable contemporary documents. Scholars are slowly trying to corroborate the various theories that have been put forward. 2) and 3) You have exactly the same story with Joseph Smith the founder of Mormonism who was ridiculed and persecuted by his contemporaries. It did not deter Mormons from becoming a rich and powerful new religion. 4) The religion that Muhammad taught was already set up by Jews and Christians. You just had to do some rewriting of scriptures. Jews and Christians reacted against Islam by not accepting it. 5) People at the time did not know much and just believed what they were told to believe. That is why they switched from Paganism to Christianity, then to Islam. 6) From which contemporary documents are all those "details" known? You must consider the following point: many critics of the Quran, me included, do not try to ascertain from where and by whom the Quran may have been written (maybe an impossible task), but if it is sensible to attribute to God such a book as the Quran. That is the reason why I say the answer to the origin of the Quran is in the Quran itself. Regards. Edited by Cyril |
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