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Moses and his adoption
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George View Drop Down
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Points: 406 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 7:52am

Originally posted by Serv Serv wrote:

 

Well, George, I am sure that you have heard of the �documentary hypothesis� which argues otherwise.  Although I am trying to keep track of the objections from its more prominent critics as well, I am sorry to be in this case and at least temporarily swayed by modern scholarship and am not meaning to entangle you in unprofitable dialogue, but prove it! 

 

Yes, of course, I've heard of it.  It is merely a theory.  The Jews would tell you that God wrote the Pentateuch.

 

The problem with this theory is it's written by 19th century German intellectuals who had no understanding of Jewish Issues and History.

The "J" document Jahweh (German mistranslation of God's name) vs. the "E" document of El or Elohim vs. the others is flawed from its very foundation. They assume because different names are used for God its different people.

Never mind the fact any child who went to Hebrew School knows these different names are referring to different aspects of God (Love, Mercy, Justice, and etc.).

 

And the Qur'an tells us that Moses wrote it:

 

"It was We who revealed the Law (to Moses); therein was guidance and light ... if any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) unbelievers ... We sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: Therein was guidance and light ... a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.  Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein.  If any do fail to judge by the light of what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. Judge. . . what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires ... "(S. Ma-ida 5:44,46,47,49).

 

So, when the Jews say that God wrote the Pentateuch, Allah seems to confirm it in the Qur'an.

 

Peace
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George View Drop Down
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Points: 406 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 7:55am

BMZ,

In Arabic daughter is " Ibnat"

 

Wife is "imra'at" ( as used in Qur'an) and young woman depends on the context, but when you say Imra'at Moses or Noah or Abraham, it means his wife.

 

The Qu'ran uses "the daughter of Imran" which means that the term daughter is used.

 

The Qur'an clearly says that it is Pharoah's wife who adopts Moses.

 

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BMZ View Drop Down
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Points: 1852 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2006 at 9:19am

George,

Wife is fine. It can also mean a woman of someone or some family. 

From you: "The Qu'ran uses "the daughter of Imran" which means that the term daughter is used."

No, George, Qur'aan does not use and mention the term "daughter of Imraan". The word used is Imraat-e-Imraan, which can mean a woman of Imraan or wife of Imraan. Please see the first two words in  the beginning of Verse 35 of Surah 3 Ale-Imraan.



Edited by bmzsp
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George View Drop Down
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Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

Wife is fine. It can also mean a woman of someone or some family. 

From you: "The Qu'ran uses "the daughter of Imran" which means that the term daughter is used."

No, George, Qur'aan does not use and mention the term "daughter of Imraan". The word used is Imraat-e-Imraan, which can mean a woman of Imraan or wife of Imraan. Please see the first two words in  the beginning of Verse 35 of Surah 3 Ale-Imraan.

BMZ,

And the wife of Pharaoh said: (He will be) a consolation for me and for thee. Kill him not. Peradventure he may be of use to us, or we may choose him for a son. And they perceived not. S. 28:7-9 Pickthall

We are back to square one.  The Qur'an says wife and the Holy Bible says daughter.

How do you explain that?  The Jews and the Christians says it was the daughter and not the wife of Pharaoh who adopted Moses and Moses confirms it.

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BMZ View Drop Down
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George,

"We are back to square one.  The Qur'an says wife and the Holy Bible says daughter."

Yes, we are back to square one. I believe that the Qur'aan is right as it explains better, being closer to Hebrew and Aramaic. As for the Bible saying that it was the daughter, it could have been some kind of mistranslation. Please keep in mind that Moses was about a 1,000 over years there before Jesus and the Greek translations might have made Pharoah's wife a daughter like they made Jesus the prophet/messenger a son! 

Also, you have to keep an open mind. Moses could not have been taken by the daughter of Pharoah. She must have been say 20-25 years old, Pharoah might have been say 55 and after Moses was say 30, Pharoah would have been 85. Then Moses is kicked out and returns after say ten years. By that time Pharoah is say 95. Moses starts his work and finally beats the Pharoah and he allows Moses to take the Hebrews out. It just doesn't add up, George. Qur'aan is therefore, correct.

Moses must have been taken by Pharoah's wife who could have been childless at that point of time. Pharoah's hardened heart melts as it is being done on purpose by God. He takes the child and Moses grows to be a Prince and a commander fighting battles for Pharoah and this looks more reasonable. 



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George View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

George,

 

"We are back to square one.  The Qur'an says wife and the Holy Bible says daughter."

Yes, we are back to square one. I believe that the Qur'aan is right as it explains better, being closer to Hebrew and Aramaic.

BMZ, I used the Hebrew Scriptures, making your explanation invalid.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

As for the Bible saying that it was the daughter, it could have been some kind of mistranslation. Please keep in mind that Moses was about a 1,000 over years there before Jesus and the Greek translations might have made Pharoah's wife a daughter like they made Jesus the prophet/messenger a son! 

I didn't use the Greek.  I used the Hebrew, the same that the Jews use, which makes your explanation invalid.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Also, you have to keep an open mind. Moses could not have been taken by the daughter of Pharoah. She must have been say 20-25 years old,

Note from the Jewish scriptures: Some say that she could not have children of her own (Philo, De Vita Moses 2:201; Wisdom 19:6). 

This would explain why the daughter adopted Moses.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Pharoah might have been say 55 and after Moses was say 30, Pharoah would have been 85. Then Moses is kicked out and returns after say ten years. By that time Pharoah is say 95. Moses starts his work and finally beats the Pharoah and he allows Moses to take the Hebrews out. It just doesn't add up, George. 

What does this have to do with Pharaoh's daughter adopting Moses?

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Qur'aan is therefore, correct.

Not based on anything that you have presented.

Originally posted by BMZ BMZ wrote:

Moses must have been taken by Pharoah's wife who could have been childless at that point of time. Pharoah's hardened heart melts as it is being done on purpose by God. He takes the child and Moses grows to be a Prince and a commander fighting battles for Pharoah and this looks more reasonable. 

How could Pharaoh's wife be childless when she had a daughter?

It looks "more reasonable" that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses since the Hebrew Scriptures say so and since it was she who could not have a child and one dropped into her lap so to speak.

And in addition, the New Testament affirms it:

Acts 7: 21 But when he was set out, Pharaoh�s daughter took him away and brought him up as her own son.

Peace
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AbRah2006 View Drop Down
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My response to George:

The Bible is not a reliable source by making contradictory statements about Moses. For example:

1)Who was Moses' father-in-law? Answer: Which one?...Jethro (Exodus 3:1 ) , Hobab (Judgges 4:11 ) or Reuel (Exodus 2:18-21 )

2)Was Moses meek? Answer: Yes, he was the meekest man who ever lived. (Numbers 12:3 ) or No, he was vicious and cruel. (Numbers 31:14-18 )....lol..........Yes or no?

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Servetus View Drop Down
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Points: 2109 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Servetus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2006 at 7:47am

(George)  �The problem with this theory [�documentary hypothesis�] is it's written by 19th century German intellectuals who had no understanding of Jewish Issues and History.�

 

Were you intending to be funny, or glib here?

 

�The Jews would tell you that God wrote the Pentateuch.�

 

Sorry.  Not all of them would.  Richard Friedman, in this book, gives an update of the state of modern scholarship and of the widespread acceptability of the hypothesis in academic and scholastic circles which, of course, includes many Jews: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060630353/002-6209254-1477 664?v=glance&n=283155

 

Serv
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