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Pope Benedict�s Remarks

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    Posted: 16 September 2006 at 1:26am
For the (accurate) information of all here are the remarks he made which have caused such violence from certain quarters:

"...The university was also very proud of its two theological faculties. It was clear that, by inquiring about the reasonableness of faith, they too carried out a work which is necessarily part of the "whole" of the "universitas scientiarum," even if not everyone could share the faith which theologians seek to correlate with reason as a whole. This profound sense of coherence within the universe of reason was not troubled, even when it was once reported that a colleague had said there was something odd about our university: It had two faculties devoted to something that did not exist: God. That even in the face of such radical skepticism it is still necessary and reasonable to raise the question of God through the use of reason, and to do so in the context of the tradition of the Christian faith: This, within the university as a whole, was accepted without question.

I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by professor Theodore Khoury (Muenster) of part of the dialogue carried on -- perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara -- by the erudite Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus and an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

It was probably the emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402; and this would explain why his arguments are given in greater detail than the responses of the learned Persian. The dialogue ranges widely over the structures of faith contained in the Bible and in the Koran, and deals especially with the image of God and of man, while necessarily returning repeatedly to the relationship of the "three Laws": the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran.

In this lecture I would like to discuss only one point -- itself rather marginal to the dialogue itself -- which, in the context of the issue of "faith and reason," I found interesting and which can serve as the starting point for my reflections on this issue.

In the seventh conversation ("di�lesis" -- controversy) edited by professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that sura 2:256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion." It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning holy war.

Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels," he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...."

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.

As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true?

I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: "In the beginning was the 'logos.'"

This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts with logos. Logos means both reason and word -- a reason which is creative and capable of self-communication, precisely as reason. John thus spoke the final word on the biblical concept of God, and in this word all the often toilsome and tortuous threads of biblical faith find their culmination and synthesis. In the beginning was the logos, and the logos is God, says the Evangelist. The encounter between the biblical message and Greek thought did not happen by chance.

The vision of St. Paul, who saw the roads to Asia barred and in a dream saw a Macedonian man plead with him: "Come over to Macedonia and help us!" (cf. Acts 16:6-10) -- this vision can be interpreted as a "distillation" of the intrinsic necessity of a rapprochement between biblical faith and Greek inquiry..."

The full text is here: http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=948 07 .

How anyone interprets this as a slur on Muslims is beyond my capability to understand; and I can only conclude that almost anything can be a spur to violence if someoneone wants an excuse.

You can agree or disagree with the point he is trying to make about the relationship between reason, faith, and rationality, but interpreting these remarks as somehow a slur on Islam is certainly willfully spreading falsehood.


Edited by runner
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fogtrik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 5:04am

 

Old Benny said nothing wrong. The muslim community could appologise to the international community for the Muslims who fire bombed those two churches in Palestine. They misunderstood an inter faith discussion. It is true, voilence and god are mutually exclusive. there are many violent passages in the Quran and the pope wasn't critical of Muhammad. Plus, there are loads of reference to use of the sword in the quran.

group hugs, Fog,

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ummziba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 5:48am
Originally posted by fogtrik fogtrik wrote:

Plus, there are loads of reference to use of the sword in the quran.

  Perhaps you could show us them!

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ak_m_f Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 10:16am
Originally posted by ummziba ummziba wrote:

Originally posted by fogtrik fogtrik wrote:


Plus, there�are loads of reference to use of the sword in the quran.



� Perhaps you could show us them!



Surah Sword:

100000:134532 [and kill them with your swords]



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote runner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by fogtrik fogtrik wrote:

 

Old Benny said nothing wrong. The muslim community could appologise to the international community for the Muslims who fire bombed those two churches in Palestine. They misunderstood an inter faith discussion. It is true, voilence and god are mutually exclusive. there are many violent passages in the Quran and the pope wasn't critical of Muhammad. Plus, there are loads of reference to use of the sword in the quran.

group hugs, Fog,



I agree with you, Fog, that the Pope said nothing wrong (the emperor certainly did, but he's some 500 years dead), and where he was wrong has little or nothing to do with what the Pope was trying to express.

Both the Quran and the Bible have numerous references to violence, both permitted and not permitted.  Is every reference to be interpreted as an invitation to carnage?  Of course not, not in either tradition, except in a few deviant groups in both.

I disagree with you, Fog, that Muslims should be apologizing for what a few misled people did.  However what I would like to see them do is to take the time to consider what the Pope was really trying to express, and to urge their brothers and sisters in Islam to do the same.  And above all do everything that they can within their own communities to make it clear that such violence and intentional generation of mis-understanding is un-Islamic and won't be tolerated there.

Salaam.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 6:27pm

 

 

1


 


Audio Bad news for religious understanding

Bad news for religious understanding
9/16/2006 - Social Political Interfaith - Article Ref: IV0609-3108
 
By: James Zogby
Iviews* -


I don't know why Pope Benedict XVI sought to quote what could only be described as an anti-Muslim diatribe to open his speech on the unacceptability of using religion to justify violence. It would have been more appropriate for him to choose a quote closer to home. After all the 14th Century source he cited was no angel, and the period in which he ruled, sandwiched, as it was, between the bloody Crusades and the equally bloody Inquisition could have provided Benedict with enough material to make his point-without resorting to a sweeping mischaracterization of Islam.

Of course, the topic needed to be addressed, but in our troubled period, heeding Jesus' injunction to "remove the beam from your own eye" first, before trying to "remove the splinter from your neighbor's eye" and leading by example, would have been the wiser course.

To be sure, religion is being abused, as it has been for millennia. Listening to or reading the poisonous utterances of bin Laden, al Zawahiri and Zarqawi or any of those who are being called "al Qaeda's second generation" makes it clear that there is a problem that Muslims must address. But listening to Christian evangelists like Pat Robertson and a whole host of other preachers or Israel's Rabbi Oveida and that country's other racist ideologues makes it clear that there are problems all around.

If the Pope's remarks didn't help, neither did recent comments by President George W. Bush. In a series of speeches delivered last week culminating with a televised address to the nation on 9/11, the President shamelessly sought to exploit fear and enflame passions to win support for his increasingly unpopular war in Iraq. Putting "flesh on the bones" of his earlier use of the term "Islamic fascism" (an expression first coined by anti-Muslim ideologues), the President repeatedly conflated 9/11 with the Iraq war, blurred differences between Sunni and Shi'a extremists in the Middle East and Iran, ominously warning that should we lose in Iraq a "radical Caliphate" extending across continents would be the outcome.

Bashing Islam and preying on the public's fears is demagoguery at its worst.

Thankfully, the story doesn't end here. There are challenges to those negative currents and they provide hope. On 9/11, for example, the Arab American Institute hosted a commemorative luncheon featuring a Washington-area Imam and an Arab Christian priest, a leading Jewish rabbi and an Episcopal Bishop. Their combined message of understanding and hope stood in stark contrast to the intolerance that is so prevalent.

On the very next day two seemingly unconnected events provided additional evidence that there can be change.

In a powerful address before the Arab American Institute, Senator Russ Feingold (D- WI) took direct aim at the President's use of the term"Islamic fascism" saying,

"We must avoid using misleading and offensive terms that link Islam with those who subvert this great religion or who distort its teachings to justify terrorist activities. I call on the President to stop using the phrase "Islamic Fascists," a label that doesn't make any sense, and certainly doesn't help our effort to fight terrorism� When the President of the United States uses that phrase, he offends peaceful Muslims around the world, and he shows that he doesn't understand the enemies that we are up against� It's obvious that the Administration made a deliberate decision to use this term. I believe that this is a serious mistake. It's time for the President to repudiate this term and instruct people in his Administration to cease using it. What is so hard about referring to the enemy as Al Qaeda, its affiliates, and is sympathizers? "

Feingold's challenge was widely repeated and well received by many.

On the same day, Minnesota's Democrats voting in their state's primary election chose a State Senator Keith Ellison to be their nominee for the US Congress .Because the district he will represent is overwhelmingly Democratic, Ellison is almost certain to win in November. At that point, he will not only become Minnesota's first African American member of Congress, he will also be America's first ever Muslim elected to Federal office. Because Ellison was associated early on with Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam (during the period of the Million Man March), his opponents have waged a relentless campaign against him. Ellison weathered these storms and won-though his intolerant foes have continued their efforts at defamation.

But despite these persistent signs of bigotry and intolerance, Ellison's victory, Feingold's courage and the message of understanding delivered at our 9/11 interfaith gathering should remind us all that there is hope for a change.

 

Dr. James J. Zogby is the President of Arab American Institute and can be reached at [email protected]

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV0609-3108

I am posting above article due to its relevance to the thread.

Now let us look at the following statement:

�Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

What is Pope trying to tell us here by quoting this anti-Islamic mindset. A person of his caliber shouldn't have quoted such stuff about the great religion, Islam.

Peace



Edited by peacemaker
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by fogtrik fogtrik wrote:

 

Old Benny said nothing wrong. The muslim community could appologise to the international community for the Muslims who fire bombed those two churches in Palestine. They misunderstood an inter faith discussion. It is true, voilence and god are mutually exclusive. there are many violent passages in the Quran and the pope wasn't critical of Muhammad. Plus, there are loads of reference to use of the sword in the quran.

group hugs, Fog,

You continue to attack Islam without any evidence. You are warned again. Please comply with guidelines. 

Peace 

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mariyah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 September 2006 at 4:02am

Pope remarks reveal harder stance

By Peter Gould

BBC News website

The furore over the Pope's remarks about Islam has left many Catholics inside and outside the Vatican shaking their heads in disbelief.

Aides of Benedict XVI are dismayed that a quotation used to illustrate a philosophical argument should have provoked such anger from Muslims.

But for others, the row has highlighted their concerns about the Pope's attitude towards the Church's relations with the Islamic world.

The first year of his papacy passed off without controversy. Yet he was quietly planning a number of key changes in the Vatican hierarchy.

When Joseph Ratzinger was elected pope in 2005, it was assumed that he would follow closely the policies of his predecessor, John Paul II.

Diverging views

On many Church issues, the two men were completely in sync. Like the Polish pope, Benedict XVI could be relied upon to uphold the traditional teachings of the Church.

But on one key issue, Vatican-watchers detected a divergence in the views of the two men: the Vatican's attitude towards Islam.

John Paul II wanted to reach out to other religions and in 2001, on a visit to Syria, he became the first pope to set foot in a mosque.

It was a gesture intended to help end centuries of hostility and suspicion between the two religions.

Benedict XVI undoubtedly wants to achieve better relations with Islam, but there is an important proviso.

It can be summed up in a single word: reciprocity. It means that if Muslims want to enjoy religious freedom in the West, then Christians should have an equal right to follow their faith in Islamic states, without fear of persecution.

Re-shuffle

One of the first signs of a toughening of the Vatican's stance came with the removal from office of Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald.

he British-born cleric ran a Vatican department that promoted dialogue with other religions. A distinguished scholar on Arab affairs, he was an acknowledged expert on the Islamic world.

Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald

Archbishop Fitzgerald: a highly-respected scholar

The decision by Benedict XVI to remove him from his post, and send him to Egypt as papal nuncio, was widely seen as a demotion.

Some wondered about the wisdom of the move.

Father Thomas Reese, a Jesuit scholar and an authority on the workings of the Vatican, told the BBC news website of his concerns: "The Pope's worst decision so far has been the exiling of Archbishop Fitzgerald," he said in an interview in April this year.

"He was the smartest guy in the Vatican on relations with Muslims. You don't exile someone like that, you listen to them.

"If the Vatican says something dumb about Muslims, people will die in parts of Africa and churches will be burned in Indonesia, let alone what happens in the Middle East.

"It would be better for Pope Benedict to have Fitzgerald close to him."

the warning now seems prophetic.

Did nobody at the Vatican anticipate the way the Pope's words might be taken out of context, and the likely reaction?

Since the 9/11 terror attacks on America, and the subsequent invasion of Iraq, nobody has been in any doubt about the importance of promoting a better understanding between Christianity and Islam.

The sensitivity of Muslims about their religion was made clear last year by the publication in a Danish newspaper of cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad.

The caricatures, re-printed in a number of Western countries, caused outrage in Islamic nations, leading to riots and acts of violence.

Daunting task

Pope Benedict has spoken of the responsibility of religious leaders to "work for reconciliation through genuine dialogue".

His task now appears even more daunting, with real concern being voiced about the possibility of a violent backlash from extremists in the Islamic world.

The Pope has said he is sorry if his words caused offence, and that may go some way to satisfying Muslim opinion.

It is often argued that a real dialogue with Islam requires an open debate, even at the risk of sometimes causing offence.

But the Pope is now acutely aware that wherever he is speaking, his words will be heard around the world by an audience ready to analyse every nuance of meaning.

He may have another opportunity to explain himself to Muslims in November, when he is scheduled to visit Turkey.

In the meantime, the Vatican will be giving a lot more thought to the words and actions needed to promote better relations between the world's two major religions.

On many Church issues, the two men were completely in sync. Like the Polish pope, Benedict XVI could be relied upon to uphold the traditional teachings of the Church.

"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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