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The Trinity and Tawhid
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2006 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

Andalus

Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Your reply has an assumption buried in it that requires discussion. You cannot assume that the idea of "trinity" has been a static notion which began with Jesus himself, or from any of his followers.

First of all Christianity is not "my faith", although as a Frenchman it belongs to my cultural background.
I said the Trinity "was only rationalized and given its name in a long process that started right after Jesus resurrection."

Quote It should also be noted that many sects did exist that were out of the control of the church and they aded their own spin to the debate. Even now, your theologians discuss and argue the material. The Quran discusses an event where the Muslims were in contact with a group who had their views.

You are right. I know all that.

Quote Here is the problem:

1) There is no single "explicit" verse in the OT that allows one to derive, with any real confidence, that Gd is, as you say He is.

2) every verse that Christians use from which to prove the most fundemental point of their doctrine is from "implicit" verses.


I thought this discussion was only about the definition of the Trinity in the NT.
You are right and you pinpoint the weakest aspect of Christianity. Instead of cutting off all ties with Judaism and start as a new religion, Christianity says it is rooted in Judaism and is its continuation.

My bad, I made reference to the NT in my point two.

Correct. 

Christianity is based upon "replacement" theolgy, which is why the church has staked its claim on showing how the OT validates them, and now they have replaced the children of Israel.

 

Quote
As Muslims have to somewhat twist the Jewish and Christian scriptures to make them fit with their doctrine, the Christians do a similar task with quotes from the OT, or a specific re-reading of whole chapters in the light of their assumptions.

Actually I would disagree. Islam is not a "replacement theology", and odes not need validation from the OT or the Christian NT. It (Islam) clearly states its theological points from its revelation, which in and of itself validates previous scripture, not the other way around.

Quote

Quote so yes, we cannot tell Gd how He is supposed to be, but we can ask for "explicit" evidence from His revelation to decide how He actually is.

Any evidence will be welcome.

agreed!

Kindest Regards
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Andalus View Drop Down
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2006 at 8:32pm

I glady share anything that I have found and contribute, and gladly correct where I have been in error.

regards!

Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

Cyril and Andalus,

May I save your latest posts in my personal file? These were excellent.

Best Regards

BMZ
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Cyril View Drop Down
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Points: 176 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 October 2006 at 12:28am
Bmzsp

Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

"Christians did receive their revelation from God, from two channels. One is the Holy Spirit (=God according to the Trinity), the other one is Jesus (=God incarnate)."

The above still confirms that God reigns supreme and the two channels come under the direction and Command of God, whether one names the two channels as gods or Gods. Holy Spirit proceeds from God, which means it is the Command and the Will of God. Anything that proceeds from God cannot be God.

The proceeding of the Spirit from the Father takes place inside God. Father and Spirit are intimate parts of God and the proceeding is an interaction inside God. It is not a creation by God.

Quote Agreed that all writings of NT have been written by others, but there is a huge difference between being inspired and what is revealed by God. I am inspired to write what I am writing here but it cannot be considered a revelation.


As we know Muslims believe in a word for word revelation from God. Christians believe in a revelation through inspiration from God, not just an inspiration as you say. "Being inspired" is not the same as "being inspired by God" or "receiving a revelation from God through inspiration".
You write from inspiration from your mind and the authors of the Bible wrote from inspiration from God.

Quote
 I don't see Jesus speaking clearly about being a God or the God, anywhere in the NT. He maintained being a subject to God. I would not say that he was ambiguous but I would say that he spoke in parables and figurative language, which his own disciples could not understand. He had to explain what he spoke in parables, to them in private.

You may not see Jesus speaking clearly about being God (where do you get the idea of "a God", from J.Witnesses I guess?) but billions of Christians did and still do.
The "being a subject to God" has been explained by the fact that God being incarnate as a man Jesus, he took over the human condition in such a way that during his sojourn on earth he was temporarily subjected to the Father. Everything was restored to divine order after his  coming back to heaven.

Quote We do not see God as "He IS three from eternity" in any of the past Scriptures. We do NOT see God as a triune God even in the NT. We do NOT see Jesus declaring a trinity or a triune God. What we are saying is that a triune God was "created" by human minds after Jesus was long gone and the Nicean Council is a witness to that. The entire reason to call for that Council was to discuss and establish the nature of Christ, who he was, what he was, etc and that is how the Creed was developed after 365 years.

I took part in that discussion not as a Christian which I am not, but to correct the Muslim misconceptions about the Trinity.

Quote "Even if he would tear himself in three, how you as a mere mortal dare say what God should do or be like?"

Then how dared the mere mortals who declared that the Lord Almighty is three instead of One.

I don't know about those people who declared that God is three instead of One.
They are mentioned in the Quran and must be some heretical sect of Christian origin. I'll let you find out who they are as it is a matter from the Quran.
The Mormons of today believe that God is three but I doubt that it relates to them.

Quote "You quote from the Jewish scriptures which offer the (nearly) same view of God as Islam."

Then, what are the Jewish Holy Scriptures doing in the Bible under the name the Old Testament? What is the need to have that book attached to the New Testament. You can't believe in the Second Part of a Book by discounting the prime First part of the Book, which is not even the exact reproduction of the Original Jewish Holy Scriptures?

I answered about that. The Christian decided that they were rooted in the OT and that Christianity was the final revelation of God about himself.

Don't Muslims do the same when they state that the Quran is the continuation of the Bible and final revelation of God?

Quote I don't think that is correct. Jesus taught from the Jewish Holy Scriptures. He taught,"You shall worship only your Lord God with all your hearts, all your minds and all your souls."

Christianity is not only that verse. If you want to expound the Christian doctrine you will have to quote half the NT. I don't think this is the place to do that.

Quote Here is the biggest problem I see with our Christian friends and that is they love Jesus with all their hearts, all their minds and all their souls instead of God Almighty but God and the Holy Spirit DO NOT receive the same attention.

I have the same feeling and I criticize Christians for giving the impression that they have two Gods, Jesus and the Father, the Holy Spirit seeming to be forgotten.

Of course Christians instantly answer that Jesus being God, their worship of him is also the worship of the other persons.

It could be similar to Muslims saying God the Almighty. It does not mean that they forget that he is also the 98 other qualities. 

Edited by Cyril
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Bismarck View Drop Down
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In about 200 CE, Tertullian of Carthage coined the word "Trinity". Have I
been clear so far? Until around 200 CE, no human lips formed the word
"Trinity". Until 200 CE, no human mouths spoke the word "Trinity". That
word was invented, in c. 200 CE, by Tertullian of Carthage.

"Trinity" is Tertullian's invention. It is his word. It is his creation.
Tertullian has the "patent" and "copyright" on that word.

Therefore, to understand what "Trinity" officially means, we must go
straight to the source -- Tertullian in about 200 CE.

Tertullian coined the word "Trinity" from the Latin Tri + Unitas which
means Three + Unity. That is, "Trinity" means "Three in Unity". This
is what Tertullian wrote, and it's his word, and therefore we have the
definition:

TRINITY = THREE IN UNITY / HARMONY / UNISON / ALIGNMENT

Note that Tertullian did not say Tri + Unus = Trinue.
Tertullian did not not not coin the word "Triune". That means "Three in
ONE". But what Tertullian said was "Trinity", meaning "Three in ONE-
NESS". Both Triune and Trinity kinda-sorta have something to
do with "three" and "one"...

but those Latin suffixes make a (big) difference here!   Triune and
Trinity are different words that must be distinguished, just like "One"
and "Oneness" are different words.

So, what does "Trinity" mean? It means:

God, the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit (which proceeds
from the Father, as per the Nicean Crede) joined together in Unity,
Oneness, Harmony, Alignment.

It does not mean that God, Christ, and the Spirit are all one and the
same thing! It means that they are together in Unity, in One-ness, not
that they are exactly one.

Christianity today preaches that God is Triune. Evidently, they
did back in 600 CE at the time of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon
him -- otherwise, the Holy Qu'ran would not have mentioned God being
called "one-third". So, already by about 600 CE, the Holy Qu'ran shows
clearly that Christendom was preaching a "Triune God". Whether
you think that's true or not, it matters not for this point: by about 600 CE,
Christendom was preaching "Triune".

But we have shown that back in 200 CE, Tertullian was preaching
"Trinity" -- a different concept!

So, unambiguously, somewhere between about 200 CE and 600 CE,
Christianity changed from Trinity to Triune. No
rational debater can argue this point. You can say that "Triune" is
true. But you cannot deny that Tertullian said "Trinity" and nowhere did
Tertullian indicate the "Triune" Godhead as it appears in Christian
doctrine today. Unambiguously, Christianity "changed its tune"
somewhere after 200 CE and before 600 CE. Right or wrong, wrong or
right, Islam would I think claim this change was a "back-
sliding" from Truth, a "falling away" from True Islam into error and
sin. (Islam might also say that this is why Almighty God called the
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to Prophethood in the first
place, to clarify what sinful mankind had muddled by that time of 600
CE.)

Tertullian, by saying "Trinity", was merely saying that Christ was in
harmony, aligment, one-ness with Almighty God through the "Holy
Breath" (spiritus means "breath" in Latin) of God. See Genesis 1:30,
2:7; John 3. This is essentially what defines a Prophet of God! See
Matthew 22:43, Mark 12:36. When a Prophet speaks, his words are "God
Breathed" because he is "speaking under the influence of the (Holy)
Spirit".

Tertullian coined the word "Trinity" to express that the Messiah was fully,
100.00%, in alignment with Almighty God. See John 10:38, 14:10, where
the Messiah says, "I am in the Father, and the Father is in me". Other
Prophets like, say, Jonah, partially resisted God's Will (Jonah tried to flee
from his calling to evangelize Nineveh, and was angry when God made
him comply).

But the Messiah always prayed earnestly and said, "Not my will, but Thy
Will be Done" (see Matthew 26:39-42).

In this sense, the Messiah was the maximum embodiment of Islam --
total, utter, and complete submission to the Will of God. As such, the
Messiah was 100.00% in harmony with God, and God's Holy Breath
that rested upon him (like all Prophets, see Matthew 3:16).

But that is not the same thing as saying that the Messiah was 100.00%
the same thing as God, that the Messiah was 100.00% God!

In 200 CE, Tertullian did not say that "Christ is God". Tertullian said
"Chist is fully in harmony with God".   Something changed that by 600 CE
and the time of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Edited by Bismarck
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Bismarck View Drop Down
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I do not want to distract from the present line of thought. But, very
quickly, the Prophet and Law-Giver Moses (peace be upon him) wished
that all his people would be Prophets (Nu 11:29). Now, we know that a
Prophet is under the influence of the Holy Spirit, which is why his words
are "God Breathed". So, Moses is here wishing that all his people would
be "sealed by the Holy Spirit". But it is the Righteous whom God "elects"
and whom God "seals" with the Holy Spirit: Elijah and Elisha, Isaiah,
Jeremiah, and the Messiah were all Holymen. I understand this to mean
that Moses was wishing that all his people would be so Righteous that
they would all become "God's Elect, God's Chosen".

This is what early Christianity was! The Messiah was not the only Believer
in the 1st century to Prophesize. The book of acts is full of examples of
others who became so holy through their Belief that they too Prophesied.
See Acts 2:16-18, 15:32, 19:6, 21:9-10. Many early Christians were
Prophets who Prophesied! This was the Prophesized fulfillment (Joel
2:28-32) of Moses' wish (Nu 11:29)! (Peace be upon Joel and Moses.)
Indeed, this is what the "Pentecostal" Christians today seek to re-
establish, whether you believe they are succeeding or otherwise.

In short, the Messiah in early Christianity seems to have been a role-
model for all believers to emulate! (The Messiah says "Follow me!"
throughout the Gospels, an exhortation to do as he does.) But by 600 CE,
the Messiah had been exhalted into Heaven itself, made part of God, and
thereby becoming an unattainable standard of perfection. No
longer was the Messiah an ideal of Islam that mortals could at least strive
to emulate -- now the Messiah was GOD and something you could never
even dream of pursuing. In this way, the forces of Satan, although
appearing to exhalt the Messiah out of reverence, actually put Christ so
far above and beyond mankind that his "ultimate Islam" ideal was now out
of reach.

The Messiah who, like all good leaders, strove to "lead by example", was
now prevented from being that example to mankind. The Messiah WAS
God, and you couldn't even dream of following in his footsteps.

Note that, in contrast to early Apostolic Christianity, which is full of
names like Judas and Silas, the whole congregation of Ephesus, Philip the
Evangelist, his 4 daughters, and Agabus who all prophesied under the
influence of the Holy Spirit (see Acts references above), Medieval
Christianity had very few prophets. Francis of Assisi had dreams from
about 1200 CE on. Joan of Arc claimed, and was widely believed, to have
been in communion with Angels from 1424 until her execution in 1431.
But she is a rare and "saintly" exception -- not the rule as was the case in
early Apostolic Christendom.

If you believe that Almighty God truly does "elect" the Righteous and seal
them with the Holy Spirit, as was the case early on as shown in Acts, then
you must conclude that True Righteousness became increasingly rare in
Christendom as the centuries wore on -- as indicated by the increasing
paucity of saints. That would seem to support the claim that Christianity
did indeed backslide away from its early roots as time wore on.
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Cyril View Drop Down
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Bismarck

Christians base their faith on the New Testament not on a Tertullian.

You can forget the name "trinity" if it bothers you, but then you'll have to replace it by a whole paragraph.

The word Trinity was coined to name the new concept of God that emerges from the NT. Not the other way around.
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Points: 184 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usmani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2006 at 9:05pm

Cyril

I have seen that you have indepth knowledge about Christianity and Islam as well.But as I understand you are niether a Christain nor a Muslim.

Do you come to a conclusion or you still need some time before finding the truth? or this is only your hobby to discuss the religion with others?

 
Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Points: 1187 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 November 2006 at 9:54pm

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

Bismarck

Christians base their faith on the New Testament not on a Tertullian.

You can forget the name "trinity" if it bothers you, but then you'll have to replace it by a whole paragraph.

The word Trinity was coined to name the new concept of God that emerges from the NT. Not the other way around.

Excellent point!

 
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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