Slavery

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   You do not need a degree in philosophy or a course in morality to answer my questions.  You have a brain, use it.  You brought up Sura IV-92 which mentions the use of slaves.  I know of 11 other passages in the Koran discussing the use of slaves: 4-3, 4-24, 4-25, 23-6, 24-31, 24-58, 20-28, 33-50, 33-52, 33-55, 70-30, and there may be more.  Would it not had been better to have required the abolishment of the institution of slavey rather than on how to use slaves? 1) Which has a higher moral standing - the abolishment of slavery or instructions on how to use slaves?  The only Muslim group that I known that has members that approve of the use of slavery are the Wahhabis, but I am assuming they do not represent main stream Islam.  What do you think?  And I mean - what do you think, not someone hundreds of years ago.
Sid

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sgeorge5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 30 December 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote sgeorge5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Slavery Posted: 02 January 2007 at 4:50pm
	You do not need a degree in philosophy or a course in morality to answer my questions. You have a brain, use it. You brought up Sura IV-92 which mentions the use of slaves. I know of 11 other passages in the Koran discussing the use of slaves: 4-3, 4-24, 4-25, 23-6, 24-31, 24-58, 20-28, 33-50, 33-52, 33-55, 70-30, and there may be more. Would it not had been better to have required the abolishment of the institution of slavey rather than on how to use slaves? 1) Which has a higher moral standing - the abolishment of slavery or instructions on how to use slaves? The only Muslim group that I known that has members that approve of the use of slavery are the Wahhabis, but I am assuming they do not represent main stream Islam. What do you think? And I mean - what do you think, not someone hundreds of years ago. Sid

Arab Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 December 2006 Location: Kuwait Status: Offline Points: 256	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arab Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02 January 2007 at 9:08pm
	I think you're judging it according to the western definition of slavery, beatng them etc. By the Muslim definition and the way they are treated, if you were a slave of a king you would be living like a king! you eat what he eats you dress the way he dresses you get payed before your sweat dries up and you cant be beaten. What more do you want? Basically its what we call today a servant. I believe its good since In Islam we have to: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)" Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Eclipses, Volume 2, Book 18, Number 163)" "'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4074)" So I think Islam did put an ending to slavery. And btw its forbidden to call them slaves. In Islam, we are all the slaves of Allah and only Allah. In Islam it also says that if you beat your slave you would go to hell. Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported: "When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas'ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). I said: Allah's Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4088)" "Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4079). The Prophet peace be upon him also said: "Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

sgeorge5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 30 December 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote sgeorge5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 January 2007 at 5:35pm
	OK, where are those comments. Is the Kuwait Kid the only Muslim with a back bone to express his opinion, horrifying as it may be. Who out there supports slavery as expressed in the Koran? Who out there is opposed to slavery, no mater what? Andalus, I know you have read this. What is your opinion? Sid

Arab Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 December 2006 Location: Kuwait Status: Offline Points: 256	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arab Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 03 January 2007 at 6:27pm
	lol hang on I didnt say I accept slavery. I accept it if the servant accepts to do his job not being forced to do it. Meaning if you want to be slave than fine (I dont call them slaves since they arent, I call them servants which they are by there free will). You cant force someone.

sgeorge5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 30 December 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote sgeorge5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 04 January 2007 at 10:51pm
	I am amazed that there has been no general condemnation of slavery. Later I will report on my experiences with slavery in Pakistan. Sid

Arab Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 December 2006 Location: Kuwait Status: Offline Points: 256	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arab Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 January 2007 at 12:21am
	slavery as if to enslave someone is forbiden in Islam and I condemn it. Maybe you would like it better brother george if u spoke to a scholar on this. www.chatislam.com on weekends usually there are scholars there. Its a chat specifically to introduce Islam to non Muslims and or reverts (converts, but we say reverts because everyone is born a Muslim meaning surrendering his will to God alone so we say revert). SO you were born a Muslim, I was born a Muslim, everyone is.

sgeorge5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Newbie Joined: 30 December 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 36	Post Options Post Reply Quote sgeorge5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 January 2007 at 5:22am
	Actually, that is my point. Nowhere in the numerous times that slavery is mention is it comdemend or forbidden. For the most part, they are verses that give instructions on how to use your slaves. Go look the verses up. I gave you the references. Slavery was common 1300 years ago, but morality has changed for a lot of the world, but not for the Wahhabis and some other Muslims. According to the independent Saudi Information Agency, Al-Fawzan said in a lecture "Slavery is a part of Islam�Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam." Al-Fawzan is a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, Saudi Arabia�s highest religious body, and a professor at Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University, Saudi Arabia's main center of learning for the Wahhabi interpretation of Islam. I do not know how strong the Wahhbis are in Islam, but their writings can be found in most Mosques in the US. They may, even, be represented in Kuwait. Please check on it and let me know. Is there anyone that wishes to condemn or defend the Wahhabis? Sid

Arab Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 15 December 2006 Location: Kuwait Status: Offline Points: 256	Post Options Post Reply Quote Arab Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 05 January 2007 at 5:32am
	They are strong in Saudia Arabia, and in Kuwait. But, as I said, whats the big deal if slavery according to Islam is not forcing him to do anything he cant, feeding him what you eat and feeding him with you on the same table you eat on, you elping him if he cant do something, you paying him before his sweat dries up, u giving him his freedom if he asks for it, u not beating him if u do u have to set him free or ull go to hell, and you not calling him bad names. This isnt slavery by todays standars of it. I dont see the big deal. Plus keep in mind this slavery isnt to enslave black or white people. Its generally speeking.