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Women-Led Friday Prayer

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 3:48pm

Salam everyone,

I can see the anger in your words more than your thoughts. Kindly don't lose your patience. This is exactly what I cautioned you in my previous post. Be united through healthy critism and tolerate even you felt offended. This is true Islam. Of course no one becomes Kafir by offering combined prayer lead by Women. The true judgement on any matter of faith is with Allah and Allah alone. However, personally speaking I have not yet heard any arguments (logical or illogical) to support this new formation of offering prayer. Is there any one who can enlighten me on this. Probably, sis Ummah can take me to that direction (a short but thoroughly supported text through evidence shall be highly appreciated). Cheers!

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Sis Ummah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sis Ummah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 4:05pm

I am sure there are many arguments in support for and against the formation.  I am not here to say whether it is an innovation or not.

What I am pointing out is the anger at Sr. Amina which I know to be more of racism and intolerance more than anything.

One can say it is an innovation when our muslim organizations invite non-Muslims to attend our Mosques and stand over us to observe us in prayer.  One can say it is an innovation when ISNA partnered with a racist group in Indiana.  Once can agree with or disagree with it.

There will always be differences of opinion and thought.  The Sahaba discussed many different issues.  But todays Muslims are extreme in their thoughts and refuse to see any grey areas, to agree to disagree and still respect and love one another as Muslims.  There is no moderation.  Sr. Amina may be on one extreme and a Fundamentalist on the other end.  But they are all Muslim still the same.  And they have a right to their opinion as Allah (swt) is the ultimate judge.

But I see too much of this, its my way or the highway talk in our community.  It is tearing us apart.  A Ummah of rules that actually follows none.  Oppression of women, racism, abuse, etc. All being fed by a healthy dose of denial.

If we could all just get along.  Whether we are Sunna or Shia or Black or Arab, then we would be practicing our religion.  It is not whether a woman leads us in prayer.  It is whether we lead ourselves by our examples of tolerance, kindness and respect for one another and our differences of opinion and most of all interpretation.

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qpeace1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpeace1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:03pm
You dont have to say it, I'll say it for you.  It's and innovation.  You can't see that?  Your other examples are innovation....aren't.  When non muslims observe muslims praying, did a man lead it or a woman?  Were the men and women separate? Where then is the innovation relevant to this topic?  ISNA and racist group?  Well, has there ever been an ISNA group before?  How then does that show innovation towards making (or changing) the salat?  One can play on words but you can't play on truth.   I don't know what community you speak of that is so rigid among AA muslim groups but which ones SPECIFICALLY have you witnessed this where the women are oppressed and beaten? Can you name them?

You said "It's not whether a woman leads us in prayer."  IT IS EXACTLY THAT!!  Have you not read the posts!!?  Respecting ones differences?  The only "different" on this one issue is YOU.  You talk as if all muslims dont' get along. Where is this occurring in America?  You can go to any masjid and be welcomed..I know, I have and I do.  And if they don't speak or greet you, make you salat for Allah and leave as quietly as you did when you arrived.  Perhaps you are misreading people or maybe you need to change your community then

Lastly, I didn't revert to islam to let people stand toe to toe, face to face with me to show I'm a "good" muslim who practices "tolerance" and "to get along".  So please save it when it comes to suggesting how I should defend myself or my self respect. 

"Men are the Protectors and Maintainers of women"  The Quran

 Does this verse NOT mean what is says? Is it open to interpretation?  Is it clear or Unclear?
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Sis Ummah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sis Ummah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:16pm

Originally posted by qpeace1 qpeace1 wrote:

Lastly, I didn't revert to islam to let people stand toe to toe, face to face with me to show I'm a "good" muslim who practices "tolerance" and "to get along".  So please save it when it comes to suggesting how I should defend myself or my self respect. 

"Men are the Protectors and Maintainers of women"  The Quran

 Does this verse NOT mean what is says? Is it open to interpretation?  Is it clear or Unclear?

So what kind of revert are you?  One being lead by the Quran or one being led by culture?

Are you steal in the idealistic phase where you believe that everything is perfect among Muslims?

I have been to plenty Mosques and have seen different from the East to the West coast.  But most of all I have been in the communities and homes to see and discuss the racism and cultural baggage up close and personal.

We do not all practice what is preached in Islam.  If so then men would be maintaining and protecting their women, but many are not.  Many are the users and abusers of their women.  Is that a matter of intepretation or practice?

Learn that Islam is not intolerant.  That is the best gift you can give yourself as a revert Muslim.

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qpeace1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qpeace1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:40pm
Once again sister, as I've stated before,  I am who I am no yellow beard, no high water pants no Henna etc.  If a person chooses those things fine, I am of the African American culture here.  I've been a muslim quite some time and was NEVER misled by anyone.  As I stated, I recognized the cultural aspects of it IN THE BEGINNING. Some have a problem with that..I didn't.   I fell in love with the Quran, NOT the muslims.  As a IT professional, I too have been blessed to have travelled across the country as well...at least 3 times working for the Dept of Labor.  Therefore, I know firsthand as well and have attended many khutbahs nationally.  I've never witnessed it to the degree that you claim.  I'm not saying you haven't but I'm saying I haven't. 

I know not all practice what they preach.  Actually,  person doesn't have to "practice" islam at all (such as a new believer) but rather say la ilaaha ill Allah the rest will come.  I know islam is not intolerant but its not so tolerant that sisters are going to start leading salat and that lesbians and gays and same sex marriage will be welcomed under the banner "tolerance" and "acceptance".  That has nothing to do with racism or men oppressing women.  That's what you need to learn. 

I guess you aren't going to touch the issue of the "oppressed" sister from Pakistan what was a Prime Minister for 2 terms in a "fundalmentalist" and "muslim male dominated" country right?  Why? Because THAT has more weight than your claim to oppression and abuse.  Nor will you find (as I stated) battered women shelters teeming with muslim women escaping abuse by there husbands. 

Although your exchange and mine appear heated, I do have respect for you as a sister in islam.  I just want you to know that. I just disagree the the whole ball o' wax.  Comprende?
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Sis Ummah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sis Ummah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:28pm

I respect you too brother. But since you may not be sitting with the sisters you have not seen what I have seen.  You have not witnessed the sisters I have witnesed being abused and left to support 7 children alone.  Maybe you have not seen them in the shelters because in the battered womens shelters men are not allowed.  Most battered Muslim women hide this fact and take shelter within their families or hide it within their households.  What you have not seen does not mean it doesn't exist.  Like the saying goes; if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, is there no sound.  What do you think?  Because it was not witnessed personally by you, it does not mean it is happening all over everyday.  Events right here in America that would make you cry.

Regarding Muslims countries that have a women leader, fine.  I am proud.  But how many?  Especially since Islam liberated women.  We should be ashamed at far back we have actually went.

Also regarding islam not being so tolerant of many things,  did you ever hear of the hadith of the Bedouin who urinated on the floor in the masjid?  Had it been today, intolerant Muslims would probably beat him and skin him alive on the spot.  There would be urine mixed with his blood.  But the Rasul (Saw) was so accepting of this bedouin that he simply told the people to put water on it.  He knew of the bedouins situation and knew that making a scene of it was not how you called people to Islam.  Just put water on it.

But look at the intolerant Muslims of today.  They are not putting water on it.  They are putting the flames of fire on anything they do not agree with.  I am sure it is not Islamic in those days or today to urinate on the Masjid floor.  But look at the lovely character of the Rasul (saw) in how he dealt with it. He calls you to Islam with his gentleness.  The intolerant Muslims of today do not call anyone to Islam.  Rather they push many, many people away.

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:50pm

Bro qpeace1 and Sis Ummah,

I really apprciate the way now the discussion is going on. Keep it up. One little point from my side would be to make our talk more logical through authentic evidence/references that appeals to the common wisdom and logic rather than mere statements with baseless accusations. Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance of injustice but peaceful but persistant communication of one's point of view across the board. Other than this, I am still looking for some posting on this forum that would help me look at the logical arguments in support and against the mixed prayer/women leading prayer event. Cheers!

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Assu View Drop Down
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Joined: 22 March 2005
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Assu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:15pm
Well I think the American way of getting popular is doing something really weird. I believe whatever Amina Wadud did is a very successful way of getting everyone's attention for cheap prices . If she really wants to change the religion fundamentals, she better start her own small business like many others. She and her little "Progressive" fellows are starting a fitna that should be condemned heftily.
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