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Women-Led Friday Prayer

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herjihad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2005 at 10:23pm

Bismillah,

Brother Yusuf's response was eloquent and measured.  Thank you. 

 However, Sister Ummah pointed out your one weak point.  (Can't you even be as nice as the Christian and Jewish women, screams out to be responded to, and she did.)

I noticed that you said that it is not forbidden anywhere in the Qur'an and Sunnah for a woman to lead men in prayer.  That is an important point.  If the prayer leader were to wear full burqa or niqab or some similar dress, wouldn't that address your point of men's wandering, lustful eyes?

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Shams Zaman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shams Zaman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2005 at 11:44pm

Dear Brothers and sisters As Salam O Alikum

We must acknowledge taht Islam was completed 1400 years ago by Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and now we can not add or delete anything from it. Indeed according to the changed circumstances we can mold ourselves within the limits laid down by Quran and Sunnah. As to the women attending the prayers in congergation, it is very clear that they are not bound to. However if they want to attend the prayers in mosque they can do so with certain conditions, that they should not be ahead of or shoulder to shoulder to teh men (not because they are inferior etc but because men should concentrate on God rather than to on women). They can also lead the prayers of women only and while standing in the leading row and not ahead of the first row. This permission was granted by The Holy Prophet to the Lady Um-e-Warqa (RA). As far as the question of women leading the mixed congergation is concerned indeed it is not permitted. The word "Muslim" means to surrender one's will to the will of Allah. So if we have to be a Muslim we have to surrender completely if we are not convinced well sorry there is no other way just taht we may adopt some other religion. At the end we will be the loser in the hereafter. If the wives and daughters of Holy Prophet have not lead the prayers it is clear that there is no provision for that. If there would have been one those ladies would have been the first one to do that. Indeed we can't mold the rituals of Islam according to our wishes otherwise Islam will become a joke and not a religion with everyone practicing according to his own will and understanding.   

Shams zaman

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mustafaa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 3:28am
Originally posted by herjihad herjihad wrote:

Bismillah,

Brother Yusuf's response was eloquent and measured.  Thank you. 

 However, Sister Ummah pointed out your one weak point.  (Can't you even be as nice as the Christian and Jewish women, screams out to be responded to, and she did.)

I noticed that you said that it is not forbidden anywhere in the Qur'an and Sunnah for a woman to lead men in prayer.  That is an important point.  If the prayer leader were to wear full burqa or niqab or some similar dress, wouldn't that address your point of men's wandering, lustful eyes?

The prayer was not only led by a woman but also men and women prayed shoulder to shoulder.

A great call indeed for the sexy-ization of prayer and secularization of Islam!

There is no deity but Allah. Muhammad is the (last) Messenger of Allah.
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herjihad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 6:00am

Bismillah,

The underlying discussion that we may not interperet things for ourselves and everything was decided before for us destroys the heart of an active, converting Islam.  Well, maybe some people like that, of course, but not me and many like me.  I understand clearly this is how many people believe, and that is fine for you.  I'll try to be diplomatic to encourage dialog amonst us Muslims.

So please, I implore all of you who believe this way not to insult all the Believing Muslims like myself.  Don't label us non-believers.  We will have to ignore you then, and you might have something worthwhile to contribute to us if you would stop ranting about doing everything the way you think it should be done. 

We listen and think and make serious decisions, and some of us lead, like this sister in New York.  (Yeah, I know she made some mistakes.  Maybe she does too.  Leaders do that when they get out there and take charge of an important situation.)  We are here, and Al-Hamdulilah, we are Muslimeen.  We love the Holy Prophets, Salat et cetera.  Let's stop exchanging cruel words when we could unite against poverty and injustice and things like that.

And I have been appointed a leader because my children hear me when I encourage them to love their Deen.  So Allah, SWT, has guided me, and ISA I will help guide them.  Maybe they will lead in prayer one day, and make big leadership decisions that everyone else talks about. (Count your lucky stars my girls are conformists. They'll be with me with the sisters in the back, or the side depending on the mosque we are at.)

Let's look for the good things in each other to agree with frequently, and then just sometimes we could remind each other of all the other things we disagree about.

Really, we heard you when you said people who don't believe like you are going to hell et cetera.  There's no need to repeat that.

Back to the main topic:  Kudos to the Leader/Sister from New York.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 7:18am

Hi Everyone!

Can't we just look at the facts and evidences on this issue more objectively than the stories or myths created around Islam by cultural fences? I guess, only then we shall be able to find the solution to the problems that we face. I really appreciate the analysis of  Bro Yousaf and shall form the basis of what come next in the following few lines . Having said this, however, I do realize that more than 90% of our mosques all aournd the world, are seperating the women's place of prayer far beyond the acceptable norms of sunnah (if at all, they have such a place for them), just based on blind fears of cultural backwardness. This kind of treatment to women is bound to cause, in the reaction to it, to what had happened in the NY last Jumma. You may admit it or not, the matter is far beyond being just the women leading the prayer. I am sure, if proper sunnah would have implemented, much less ripples would have been created. Let's remove un-necessary barriers created in our mosques and let our women pray as it has been the case at the time of our prophet. Let the most educated among us (male or female) give us Khutbahs and sermons at other occassions, however, let the imam be the most pious male among us. Yes, we can have someone else (other than imam) to give Khutbah and then imam lead the prayer subsequently. Let the women also participate in decision making or other processes concerning mosques or Islamic centers. Let there be proportional representation of both men and women in the excutive committees of their respective centers. Let the racism of any kind not find its roots among us and be fair in our dealings with everyone. Any other thoughts, kindly suggest or critcize but tolerate others. Cheers!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 March 2005 at 1:57pm

Salamalikumm to all who deserve it from Allah.

MY dear brothers and sisters. We can discuss this matter at hand as much as we want however we will not be able to conclude and make everyone agree.THerefore let us spend our time and health in the path of Allah through which Allah will fix thes corruptions from behind the veil. ALso the ones who r showing the fabricated hadith shud also understand that all ahadith r not fabricated and that many brothers and sisters here have also stated AUTHENTIC ahadith as long as we believe in ahadith(BUkhari etc... and Quran). So clearly proven, women Are not allowed to lead prayers. If more information needed, just look above at those authentic ahadith and QURAN ayah please.

For true believers much words are NOT needed for remembering death and judgement. however for the rest no matter how much we write and write and speak it WILL NOT enter the hearts if Allah has veiled their hearts.may Allah save us Ameen.  

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masoodulhameed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2005 at 1:36am
Originally posted by qpeace1 qpeace1 wrote:

This is for Sister Ummah,

Sister, I think you know this isn't a racist issue.  I'm black and didnt' know the sister was until someone posted pictures.  We are talking islamic tradition and the same reaction would have been given it she was nonblack.  Secondly, why would men feel insecure if she gave the khutbah?  SHE and yourself are saying this right?  You see, anytime a women does what a man normally does and a man opens and disagree with a point she makes (as he does with other men) women say he is insecure.  This is a cop out.  She is free in America to do as she wills.  I wouldn't attend her jumah.  Not because she is black(that should be a reason to support her..no?) but because the deen is preserved statically in this area (although islam is dynamic) and this is innovation.  Someone raised a good point concerning muslim female students in France standing up to the France government to keep wearing hijab.  I would think the sister would throw her weight behind and issue such as that. 

 Third, I'm muslim strong sister, I don't have to be accepted by White, nonmuslim Blacks, Muslims or anyone else.  Looking for acceptance went out in the 60's with MLKing Jr.  I study the arabic, the different branches of thought, Shia islam, sunna, while still remaining competition in the IT industry and a family man.  Being a descendant of slaves and having knowledge of Allah makes a brother deal with this soceity head on!! I'm talking over 20 years of marriage, twins in college and STILL go to jumah as an African American, dredlocked, leather jacket wearing muslim.  I'm who I am and dont care you doesn't like it; therefore I dont have burden of "being accepted" or lean heavily on "race".  Perhaps if you view a muslim matrimonial website, you'll see many "foriegn" muslim dont rely on "race" as well. 

Fourth,  since when do black women allow themselves to be marginalized, mistreated and disrespected by black men?  Muslim or not.  When?  Sure there are some brothers who misunderstand the application of islam especially in America but most have a good grasp on it.  We elevate and respect our women IF they respect us as men.  Most don't so please don't put us into the same category as some irresponsible nonmuslims.  We all know there are blessed and wise believing sisters and I'd protect and defend them.   However, for the Khutbah, I'm following the over 1400 years of tradition.  Now, do you have a problem with that?

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masoodulhameed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote masoodulhameed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 March 2005 at 1:39am
Originally posted by madaleine daif madaleine daif wrote:

To Sarah Eltantawi,

It is really sad that you see the women in Islam are not free because they sit behind the men. We are very free, this has nothing to do with freedom of women but with respect for eachother and modesty that Allah wants from us. This is the beauty in Islam. And let me tell you. I am from the Netherlans and my whole family is cristian so I am used to a lot of freedoms and know what you mean. But you see it so wrong, I am married to an Egyptian man and we live a good life together with our children and I am very happy to be muslim and I feel great sitting with the women behind the men. It feels so so comfortable and so right to me. This is the way Allah wants us to pray so we have to obey, we are not creating a new rule or a new quran are we. That would be the day, a day that Insha'allah will never come because if you would really understand your religion you would never write the way you did! Sincerely Madaleine Daif

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