Sunni Shiite Islam

Salam to aservent,

Thank you for citing your sources, now the real discussion can begin!

1.) "the main difference between Shi�ism and other sects is the acceptance of Wilayat-e- Moula Ali (as) so where ever we give the first 2 testimonies ( i.e. Touheed & Risalat ) we should immediately give the 3rd testimony, the wilayat of Moula Ali (as) and all shias believe that the Third testimony ( Ali un wali ullah ) is just as necessary as the first 2 testimonies.".

This statement implies that the Shia have changed the shahada (the proffesion of faith in Islam) The shia have never claimed that "Ali un wali Allah" is part of the shahadda by which a person accepts Islam. I have witnessed (quite a few times) a person who says the shahadda in a Shia community, and this phrase is not included, nor does anyone try to include it. Shia commonly say the testimony in the way you described, however, it is for a reason other then what is claimed.

The reason for making the statement (Ali un wali Allah) among the Shia is to emphasize the CENTRAL importance of the concept of Immate as a pillar of faith. Our Sunni brothers often mistake this as an "elevation" of Imam Ali (a.s.) as a person, however, it is (more precisely) and elevation of the CONCEPT of the Immate. If you would like to discuss this further, I would prefer to discuss why the Shia include Immate as a pillar of Islamic belief, as the qualities and merits of Imam Ali (a.s.) are well known to anyone who has not been blinded by hatred. 

2.) "The Imam is utterly free of sin and pure of all fault. He is celebrated for his knowledge and his forebearance. His existence is a source of pride to the Muslims, of anger to the hypocrites, of perdition to the unbelievers. The Imam is unique in his age, in the sense that no one can attain his rank. No scholar can come within range of his knowledge, and he is unequalled in all his qualities. He possesses all virtues and worthy attributes without any striving on his part, and he is adorned with all lofty characteristics. This is a great gift bestowed on him by God in His generosity."

... So you are actually raising an imam to the level of Allah. (May Allah forgive you for that statement)

In regards to what you quote from my favorite website, I will let the quote stand on it's own (as it is a true and accurate reflection of Shia belief regarding the status of the Imam). As for your commentary, it is ridiculous and non-sensical and I will not comment on it at all. Anyone who knows anything about mainstream Shia doctrine (even if they are a Sunni) would never make such a statement.

3.) REGARDING the merits of Imam Ali (a.s.) in comparison to other prophets (a.s. to them all).

I don't see how this is an insult to anyone (unless you dispute the facts of the statement, which you didn't mention). ALL SHIA recognize the authority of and send blessings to all of the Prophets (a.s.). The question of whether someone is (for example) superior to someone else because he is mention more often in Quran is a statement of opinion, and not fact. As a result, we can legitimately criticize the factual statements made, however, the opinion of the author is his own opinion. I have never seen a hadith in Shia books from the Prophet (a.s.)

The role and status of an Imam is different then a messenger (Prophet). The Holy Messenger (a.s.) was both a prophet and an Imam. This is why noone claims that Imam Ali (a.s.) is above the Holy Messenger (a.s.), as Imam Ali (a.s.) was NOT a prophet. However, there are some prophets which were NOT given Immamate, and the status of an Imam is higher then a prophet who was not given Immate. 

"  Imam is a leader who guides by a Divine Command, which is closely associated with him. The imamah, in its esoteric sense, is al‑wilayah (guardianship, authority) over the people in their actions and activities; and its guidance entails conveying them to the final destination by the command of Allah. It is different from that guidance which only shows the way ‑ and which is usually done by the prophets and messengers of Allah as well as by other believers who guide the people towards Allah with sincere exhortation and good advice. "

For a more detailed discussion of this, and proof from Quran, see http://www.almizan.org/Tafseer/baqarah28.asp

Salam

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Dear Ali Zaki,

 

If I may, I would like to start by quoting a Hadith I read within the link you included:

'Ali b. Husayn said:

The birth of our Qa'im will be hidden from the people in such a way that they will assert: "He has not been born at all!" The reason for his concealment is that when he begins his revolution he will have no one's allegiance on his neck.[23]

 

I have quoted this Hadith as reverts embrace Islam in a similar position (ie when he begins his revolution he will have no one's allegiance on his neck), hence please do not think that I question you as an enemy of Shia Muslim�s, rather I am a person seeking clarity.

 

 

With regards to my question on the worship of the shrine of Imam Ali {AS} - I have seen (TV) footage of Shia�s partaking in the act of - circumambulation (around the shrine of Imam Ali {AS}). This circumambulation is similar to what a Muslim would partake in during Hajj (ie around the Holy Kaba).

 

I have contemplated from where this action originated and have arrived at a conclusion � Shia Muslim�s perceive that non-Shia�s are upon innovation (as non-Shia perceive Shia�s to be upon innovation). This has led to Shia�s been somewhat isolated from the Holy Land (ie Mecca & Medina) where non-Shia�s hold dominion. Hence Shia�s congregate at the shrine of Imam Ali {AS}, as at least here (in �Shia territory�) they are able to come and go as they please, and have somewhere they can consider - belongs to them.

 

           

With regards to the annual remembrance of the passing of Imam Husayn {AS}, I am sure that you will find for everyday of the year, a family somewhere will have lost someone dear to them, hence if you commemorate the passing of one person, you open the door to others commemorating the passing of someone even more dear to them (on a personal level) than Imam Husayn {AS}, So once you start such annual remembrance/commemoration where does it end?

 

Do you commemorate the passing of Muhammad {SAW}? And if not - why not? For surely he is more dear to you than �� This is the reason why I perceive the practice to be nothing more than a form of idol worship, hence I condone this action, and cannot possibly justify or support it.

 

 

I am hopeful you will respect that none of what I have stated here is designed (as a means) to oust Shia�s from the Islamic faith, for I respect Shia Muslims and am sure many of you are very kind & caring people, I only say such things as I disagree with these particular actions, and my caring heart sincerely hopes that you abstain from such practices - for the good of Islam as a whole. 

 

Whether you adhere to this advice (or not) is something I am unable to control, and I do not wish to get into an argument about these matters.

    

 

Dear Br. Tasneem,

We are talking about apples and oranges now!

I will avoid unneccessary details, and try to answer you simply and directly.

" Why is it that you differentiate between the scholars then? Had you followed the same scholars that the main stream Muslims depend upon whose collections of the hadith we follow and the translations and interpretatons of the Qur'an we follow, then there would not have been any difference between your sect and the main stream Muslims."

I will not quote (again) the numerous hadith (and Ayat) that I have previously quoted, however, needless to say that fact that relicance on (and obedience to) Ahly Al'Bayt is neccessary for our guidance is well established. The reason that I don't follow the majority is because the majority have neglected to follow the orders of the Holy Messenger (a.s.) regarding love and obidience to his Ahly Al'Bayt. Authority (in all affairs) belongs only to Allah (s.w.a.), and his Holy Messenger (a.s.) and the Uhl Al'Amr (those who give charity while in Rukoo, and those of this caliber, namely Imam Ali (a.s.)). The scholars are only the representatives of Uhl Al'Amr. The open mind can easily see and understand this, no "pre-requisites" needed.

" giving Ali the status of a prophet or more than Mohammed (PBUH) has never been said anywhere. "

Again, brother, you show the true aim of your posts (i.e., to create doubt and discredit the Shia). This lie (and similar ones, such as two Qurans, etc.) have been refuted over and over again (on this site and for hundreds of years by millions of other Shia) and yet they continue to be repeated. Bring your evidence that the Shia beleive this (if you are sincere).

wa aleykum salam wr wb br. Ali

1.) Are you fluent in Arabic (speaking and writing formal Arabic) ? If the answer is no, then you are not reading Quran, but someones subjective opinion about how the words and concepts which were revealed in Arabic can be translated to a different language. This is important to consider.

Not if you go with translitteral translations, all the avaible encyclopedia and arab langauge tools avaible, and make up your own mind. Its the same way i learned about king gilgamehs and the finds they did regarding him. The clay tablets are in kuneform. Do i speak that or know how to read it par se?? nobody does! Do we know what it says? yes we do. Language is a tool and nothing else. And as with any other tool, if you understand the basic principle of it, you can operate it at a satisfying level, the rest is mastering it.

2.) Are you familiar with the difference between the mohkam (clear, unambigious verses) and the mutashabihat (ambigious verses) in Quran?

Absolutely.

�He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are firm verses; they are the mother of the book; and others which are of a similarity. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is of a similarity from it seeking to make an ordeal, and seeking to derive its interpretation. But none know its interpretation except GOD and those who are well founded in knowledge. They say: 'we have faith in it, all is from our Lord'. And none will remember except the people of understanding.� (3:7)

God told me. And if im to prove a point regarding translation. Here are 5 translation, the translitteral and the original wording.

Transliteration Huwa allathee anzala AAalayka alkitaba minhu ayatun muhkamatun hunna ommu alkitabi waokharu mutashabihatun faamma allatheena fee quloobihim zayghun fayattabiAAoona ma tashabaha minhu ibtighaa alfitnati waibtighaa ta/weelihi wama yaAAlamu ta/weelahu illa Allahu waalrrasikhoona fee alAAilmi yaqooloona amanna bihi kullun min AAindi rabbina wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi Y.Ali: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: 'We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:' and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. Pickthal: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. Shakir: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. Literal: He is who descended on you The Book , from it (are) perfected/tightened verses, they are (F) The Book's origin/mother , and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure , so but those who in their hearts/minds (is) deviation from truth , so they follow what resembled from it, asking/desiring the treason and asking/desiring its interpretation/explanation , and none knows its interpretation/explanation except God. And the affirmed in the knowledge , they say: "We believed with it, all/each (is) from at our Lord, and none remember/mention except (those) of the pure minds/intelligence ."

And finally a pretty good translation made by progressivemuslims

3:8 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are resolute verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge, they Say: "We believe in it, all is from our Lord." And none will remember except the people of understanding.

Dont let anyone tell you that Gods message is not easily understood in any language. And if you do your homework, you will realise that these translations arent half bad. Check the literal for yourself.

As for what Gods attitude is towards playing the language game just like the catholic church did by forcing latin on everybody. He knew upfront that this would be the case.

"If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, 'If only its verses were made clear!. Can it be Arabic and non-Arabic?'. Say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway." (41:44)

Altso, Mohammad (Gbh) came to a people who never had a warner before him, so naturally arab was chosen as it was the language spoken by this people. Not because arabs was superior or anything like it.

No language is any holier than another.

And among his signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and the variations in your languages and colours. Certainly, in that there are signs for the knowledgeable. [30:22]

All of the languages of mankind are among the signs of God.

Mankind was one community.. [2:213],

and thus had one language. All languages can be traced back to the comprehensive (kullahaa) prototype language of descriptions/names (al-asmaa�a) taught to Adam by God.

And He taught Adam the names, all of them..[2:31].

By means of being the Teacher of language to humans He is thus also, the Teacher of the recitation [55:3].

He taught him explanation /elucidation /clearness (al-bayaana) [55:4].

A general characteristic of all languages is making things clear.

God is ..The One who teaches with the pen. He teaches the human what he didn�t know [96:4-5].

This is talking about the use of pen in general terms throughout all humanity. The use of the pen in language, writing descriptions (al-asmaa�a), teaches the human what he didn�t know. In [8:31] Adam was taught the names while the angels hadn�t yet been taught them and were asked by God to communicate to Him (anbi�uwnee) the names.

They said, Glory be to you, we have no knowledge except what you have taught us..[2:32].

Adam, the human, taught by God by means of the pen (written language) what he didn�t know, was now asked by God to communicate to the angels (anbi�hum) the names (al-asmaa�a) that they didn�t have knowledge of. Thus, through the use of the pen Adam communicated the meaning of the names to the angels.
(thanks to Neil Maybanks who did the foot work on this)

It is pretty obvious, that language is merely a tool for us to use, but yes. Admitted. It takes time.

3.) When you read an Ayat of Quran, do you know if it was revealed in Mecca or Medina?

No, and i fail to see why it is important.

4.) Do you know if the Ayat you are reading is specific (i.e., meant to address the Muslims regarding a specific situation) or general?

Im unsure what you are asking brother, Could you give me an example?

5.) Do you know if the verse has been abrogated, and the abrogating verse?

According to?

For those of us (like me) who lack this knowledge, we must depend on scholars for guidance.

Or... you can obtain the required knowledge and do your own thinking.
There are a mountain of refference works avaible. Not only that, its your duty to do so brother.

�Do they not ponder the Quran?. Or do they have locks on their hearts?� (47:24)

�And We have cited for mankind in this Quran of every example, but most of mankind refuse to be anything but a rejecter!.� (17:89)

Peace
Noah