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Non-Muslim Celebrations

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Salams_wife View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Salams_wife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2008 at 7:55pm

I know what you mean Layalee.  I have been a muslim for less than a year so I am still finding my way to do what is right and keep good relations with my family.  Not an easy thing to do when you tell your very religious family you converted to a different religion that they are very nervous about.  I also have several pastors in my family so I have to constantly listen to their comments of converting me back (which I tell them there isn't a chance).  Thank God they love me enough to accept me regardless.

As for the pork issue, that has always been a problem.  I found I had an allergy to pork when I was 15 years old so I stopped eating it then.  People kept saying it was all in my head and would try to sneak it into food where it was more difficult to know, but I still often got sick from it.  Other times I just ate vegetables if pork was the only meat served.  So at least converting over to Islam didn't cause too many problems on the pork issue.  I had learned my way around that years ago.

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2008 at 8:28pm
layalee wrote:

As salaamu Alakum Brother Isafril

I think you gave a good counter-debate with your latest post. But I was curious in knowing more of your personal view( if you don't mind sharing with me). Do you think their is a difference in saying 'happy holidays' then 'Merry Christmas' to non-muslims? Do you think it's permissible for Musliims to use one the phrases, all of the phrases, on none of them?

Salaam

 

In my own personal view, there is a significant difference between wishing someone "Happy Holidays" and "Merry Christmas." With the former, you are acknowledging the fall Holidays which include (depending on the month and calendar) Happy Eid, Happy Hannakuh, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Years. Although Happy Holidays is quite general in the sense, it does not point out any significant Holiday in which the greeter gives respect to but acknowledges all the Holidays. With respect to the latter, we are being more specific and the greeting is more significant because we are acknowledging a specific religious holiday. Although one can say Merry Christmas and in their mind not have any intent on attributing their greeting in a religious way, but because Christmas is generally recognized as a religious holiday (and national one at that) it can be believed along the lines of being a religious one.

If one were to greet a person either or it depends on the intent as well as the circumstance. If you are simply being cordial and in your heart the greeting is strictly out of courtesy I don't see why either of the greetings matter. However, I would only agree with scholars with respect to not greeting someone a Merry Christmas only because the greeting may entail recognizing Christian beliefs. But, I would go to the extreme and say greeting someone a Merry Christmas is along the lines of worshiping the crucifix. No, that is more extreme than what I would say. I also wouldn't say that a Muslim would fall out of grace. These rhetorical statements are merely trying to scare the masses in being "pious." The problem with scholars on this subject is distinguishing what are appropriate and inappropriate greetings and how we can be courteous to Christians without offending them and overstepping our own religious boundaries.

 

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layalee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote layalee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2008 at 8:39pm
Thanks for sharing your view brother Israfil.
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mariyah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mariyah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2008 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Seekhidayath said:

"Am ready to accept that its not wrong to celebrate non-muslim festivals. I did not get a single proof to change my views."

That is because you never addressed my post. When you told me to look at the link I did and I responded back in even greater detail yet convinently, you ignored what I wrote. So now I'll go back to your post and I'll address what you're saying.

Seekshidayath you said:

Agreeing to their hoilday is agreeing to infidelity (kufr), and agreeing to some minor aspects (of their religion) is like agreeing to a branch of infidelity.  In fact, the holidays and festivals are one of the major items that distinguishes their customs and laws, and are one of the most odvious of their rites.  Agreeing to it is agreeing to one of the most specific of the acts of infidelity and one of the most blaten of their rituals.  There is no doubt that agreeing to or being in accord with something of that nature can only lead to apostasy, in general, given its conditions."

First off saying one agrees to something especially in the above context is obvious as there is no example of how one agrees to commence in festive activities. Do we constitute participation through greeting someone a "merry christmas?" Or do we constitute it on the level of sctive participation? You need to define these clearly.

Indeed, beyond that, the scholars have even said that it is not allowed for a Muslims to congratulate the non-Muslims on the holidays or festivals.

Well there are scholars who encourage their members to kill in the name of Allah and tell the men to mistreat their women so do I take the words of fallible men (scholars)? No. So the comment above does not apply.

"Giving congragulations on the special events that are specific to the desbelievers, such as congratulating them on their holidays by saying, 'Blessed holiday for you.' or other similar greetings, is considered forbidden by the agreement of the scholars.  Even if the one who starts it is free from many aspect of apostasy, it is still forbidden and it is the same as congratulating them upon their prostrations to the crucifix.

So saying happy holiday is wrong. Well, that is the opinion of a scholar, a fallible man, but the scholar has yet to prove the important distinctions between saying happy holidays and merry Christmas or happy mother's day. What constitutes what? What are those distinctions that constitute active participation? I'm unsure of this remark: Even if the one who starts it is free from many aspect of apostasy, it is still forbidden and it is the same as congratulating them upon their prostrations to the crucifix.

Whoever congratulates another human for any sin, heresy, or act of apostasy has exposed himself to the punishment and Anger of Allah {Subhaanuhu wa Ta'alaa}.  The pious people from the earler scholars would avoid congratlation the oppressors when they received positions of authority or the ignorant when they were given judicial or teaching positions in order to avoid the punishment of Allaah {Subhaanuhu wa Ta'alaa} and falling from His Grace.  If a person would be compelled to go to such people to repel any evil that he expected from him, only to speak well to him and to ask Allaah {Subhaamuhu wa Ta'alaa} to guide him, there is nothing wrong with that."

This entire paragraph appears is more rhetorical nonsense than actual informative messages. I find such of the animated words in the paragraph as a means to scare the gullible masses than educate them. "Avoid falling from his grace" come on! first off, how do we know we fall from God's grace in the first place? Do we somehow feel it biologically? Again your scholar has yet to prove clearly why celebrating non-muslim holidays is wrong.

Muslims who participate in the holidays are termed ignorant and hypocritical.While not all are religious holidays, the Internet site says Muslims are required to be different from non-Muslims �in matters which are representative of them or are characteristic of their identity.�

"While the internet site.....Sounds like you have received a lot of information from....an..internet site..... Ummm ok.

 

 


Dearest Brother Isafril:
Consider the countries where these posters claim to live. They have little contact compared to us with "people of the book" As the prophet once commented is that Islam would again rise from the west. Many of the quotes of the scholars i see here are of Indo pak origin and they really do not have a clue about anything but an isolated type of Islam. Their Islam has a lot of cultural practices written in stone in its practice. They are exposed to hindis and Buddhists and those are not of the Abrahamic religions. Consider the cultures of the so called "extremist" and it is obvious.
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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mariyah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mariyah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2008 at 11:42pm
Asalaamu alaikum:
And here is the ruling of one Scholar or Shayk that I found at Islam online, please note the Quranic verse it includes, It is the command of Allah Sunbanallah wa taa'la: This is what I mean for every fatwa there is a counter Fatwa:


found at http://www.islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=73425

No wrong to wish merry xmas: Qaradawi

30/12/2007 11:12:00 PM GMT   Comments (0)     Add a comment 





Qaradawi said the Noble Qur'an encourages Muslims to greet Christian and Jewish minorities in their countries quite affably.

CAIRO � Muslims are expected to be friendly towards Christian and Jewish minorities in their countries, reciprocating any goodwill and festival greetings, and treating them on equal terms as citizens, prominent scholar Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi has said.

"Greeting Christians and Jews in their festive days is permissible if they are at good terms with Muslims, particularly those close like relatives, neighbors, work or education colleagues," Qaradawi, the president of the International Union for Muslim Scholars (IUMS), wrote in an article published on his website.

Qaradawi said the Noble Qur'an encourages Muslims to greet others quite affably.

"Allah Almighty says: "When you are greeted with a greeting, greet in return with what is better than it, or at least return it equally�) (An-Nisa� 4: 86)

"And: "Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity," (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8), Qaradawi added.

Christians worldwide are celebrating nowadays Christmas or the birth of Jesus Christ.

In a goodwill gesture, 138 Muslim scholars signed last week a Christmas message to the Christian clergy worldwide, including Pope Benedict XVI.

  • Citizens

The renowned Muslim scholar has also urged Muslims to refer to Christians in Muslim countries as "citizens" in lieu of "Ahl Adh-Dhimmah" � a term used in early Islam to describe Christians and Jews living under the protection of the Islamic state.

He said Muslim scholars have reached a consensus that Christians living in Muslim countries should enjoy citizenship rights.

"They (Christians) live in this or that (Muslim) country; so why don't we drop Ahl Adh-Dhimmah which offends them and use 'citizens' instead? Qaradawi wondered.

Qaradawi said Muslims should live in today's world and be realistic.

"Many sheikhs and scholars live in their books not in our world," he said.

"They have not read yet the book of life as they read the books of early Muslim scholars. Their fatwas then sound out-of-date."

Source: IslamOnline
4:86 When a (courteous) greeting is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous,
or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things.
وَإِذَا حُيِّيْت 15;م بِتَحِيّ 14;ةٍ فَحَيُّو 75;ْ
 بِأَحْس¡ 4;نَ مِنْهَا أَوْ رُدّ&# 1615;وهَا إِنَّ
 اللّهَ كَانَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ حَسِيبًا





Edited by Maryah
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2008 at 1:08am

 

  Very good , opinion and guidance in this matter. I am happy to note the verse of quran 4:86 which I knew but failed to present. It says, if you get any gift or greeting then try to return that greeting with better words / value or if that is not possible then return it with equal good quality.  Thanks for posting the verse.

 qardhawi has given good line to the muslims. I was reading Quan today (morning). It was from 5:57 onward. We are not to befriend the enemies of Islam. The matter was all about the people of the book. If those jest and make jokes of our religion or our call for the prayer then of course we should not get close to them.

 But for the normal christian, there is no harm to us to get along with him in a good human way. I do not mind believing the scholars and respecting them but their material should be decent and loving and supporting peaceful co-existence. Islam is for peace and love and not for hatred.



Edited by minuteman
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2008 at 1:49am

Originally posted by Knowledge01 Knowledge01 wrote:

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

 

May Allahu subhanahu wa ta'ala forgive me for not posting this in advance of the kafir "holidays", but as I browse this website, I realize it is VERY much needed as I see Muslims congratulating KUFAR on THEIR "holidays".

Waalaukussalaam: Don�t worry about being late on the post cuz it has so far been viewed by app 500 people and if  you do a guesstimate they were    about 0.00003% of the Muslims in the whole world, will take a long time to warn who are living in the non Islamic world and those who stuck in the neo colonialism. So get the this heavy weight off your shoulders and relax!

Allah knows all about the decline of His ummah  since the demise of Caliphate and it�s passing on to colonization (a euphemism of a modern slavery)

It is no secret brother what you are calling KUFAR have enslaved Islamic lands directly or indirectly. If you live in some African country, mostly were part European colonies, imagine the degradation the people have gone through!

You might like to know the Muslims some of which were moved around as indentured slaves or coolies from one colony to another like say from India to Africa south or Indies west or Australia etc.

If you see Muslims congratulating KUFAR, you probably don�t see many clearly prohibited things they do provided by the capitalist west to all. The so called Muslims themselves are involved in the booze, swine and gambling trades to make the almighty dollar! Most people who are not dedicated miss out the Jumaa and then tell the bosses to have a nice weekend! The weekend is Saturday and Sunday - holiday for Jews and Xians.

 

If you could only see the so called Muslim doctor crowd who migrated from the subcontinent to the US blow their easy money in the casinos of the Sin City!

In US capitalism/consumerism the Xmas is nothing but a climax of rampant consumerism and an indicator for the economy. The celebrant of this Roman holiday buy the goods at full prices and the non celebratory spectators pay a fraction the day after and are happier with less charges on their plastics.

I haven�t had any such encounter ever since my retirement took effect of any such congratulations, the colleagues knew what to expect! In the neighborhood the family on the right is a reform Jewish a non issue on the left a secular Xians they have a inflatable Santa on the front yard and the lights and they have a quite dinner with their family and their hardly any greetings. A couple years back a new bible thumper family got little excited and went around the neighborhood singing Xmas carols, now they also learnt to keep to themselves.

Didn�t have too good of terms with the Jewish fella for sometimes but now Hi hello takes place. He surprised with Happy Ramadan greetings last year, it so happened that the same day was their Rosh Hashanah or new year and I did greet him and then asked what did he do for that! His answer he as not into the repentance thing being a reform Jew!

Originally posted by Knowledge01 Knowledge01 wrote:

 As Muslims, we are the most honorable, dignified people who, alhamdulillah, are following the din of the Creator of everything and that din is complete and anything that the most honorable and last Messenger, Muhammad (sall Allahu alaihi wa salam), did not participate in, we must refrain from.

Let me quote a couplet from Dr. Iqbal�s famous poem �the Complaint�

 

You are a Syed ,  a Mirza and Afghan too!

You are every thing but pray tell are you a Muslim?

 

His famous poems are available on you tube, you might like to read.

Your self praise of Muslims is commendable, but I am afraid they haven�t got their act together! Where are they in the pioneer or leadership position in the world? Just look at the news from the place called the Land of  Pure, where 170 million people are crying for the availability of the basic food staple wheat flour. They are under the boots of sycophant dictators who themselves are living in the laps of utter luxuries, having a party at the expense of the common man. Is that the example of dignified people? And most other countries are no better! I am sorry brother talks is cheap.

Originally posted by Knowledge01 Knowledge01 wrote:

 

Insha'Allah ta'ala, this will still benefit some this year and all proceeding years.  Please read THOROUGHLY.

 

http://www.islamqa.com/ln/php/the_file.php?ln=eng

Quoting Ibn al-Qayyim whose time was when the realm was under Ottoman command and the Muslims literally told the rest of the world what to do  and how to do it! I am wondering why al-Qayyim was discussing this, I don�t think it was an issue those days!

 I think is kind of bad joke considering the condition of Muslims today!

Is Ibn al-Qayyim a Ahle sunnah source, I have some doubts! He is used by the Saudis a lot!

Finally if you don't live in the west  & haven't been involved  in a business you won't know what this ' happy holidays' are all about! It is the bottom line



Edited by Sign*Reader
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2008 at 7:05am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

Minuteman - Zawaj.com clearly answers your questions. Its upto you.

Hi Angel

Is there anywhere in islam, well from the quran and hadith, that provides what the punishment is? And is there anything that implies that Allah will punish you for wishing a merry/happy christmas, or wishing in general for goodness and happiness at anytime whatever the religion or other festivals are?as you said

This is stated.

Among the Ummah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) there will be people who deviated from the truth and went towards falsehood, changing and altering things. Their punishment will be that they will be kept away from the Hawd (Cistern) whilst those who adhered to the Straight Path will come and drink from it.

Bu congragulating or particiating in them we are affirming there faith and strenthening them.

So should non muslims and christians (if they do) stop celebrating muslim festivities or just joining in for fun, to stop you from feeling proud of your religion and beliefs ? and stop you from being stronger.


I'm with Imp, maryah, Israfil and minuteman.

I also believe somewhat that the scholars, at least what Seek had brought across, have gone way to far in the extreme to the point of shutting yourself of from society. Alot of it is paranoia and causes unnecessary anxiety. How can you function like that ?

Laylee, i respect your beliefs and that is your choice but I cannot help but feel you are wrapping yourself up in cotton wool, I'm sure you feel some kind of aniexty, just look now at mothers' day you say you won't celebrate it anymore?? I can see you now on the day making a concious effort in not doing anything for your mum for fear of doing something wrong in the eye of Allah because it now has somekind of religious context to it.
I mean no offence and you can do whatever you like but this is what I am picking up from your posts.

In general, in all of this, nothing is set in concrete in islam on all of this and its unclear EXACTLY what Muhammed did, of course he didn't celebrate christmas but i doubt that he didn't think of Jesus at that time himself with Jesus being a prophet in Islam. and it seem to come down to personal opinion but wishing some one merry/happy christmas, etc etc or attending a celebration while staying away from certain things like alcohol and pork SHOULD NOT have to compromise your religion or faith. Many people anyway have special dietary needs.

I brought two articles that posted, one in the thread "the truth about christmas" and the other is in interfaith about views of some muslims of these time of holidays. links are:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=29& PN=4

www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=10&PN=2








Edited by Angel
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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