The treatment of women

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   Hayfa you said:
Israfil, would you say thatwomen can appear more "conniving" because in a basic functional sense, women have needed men more than women. Islam aside (marrying for Allah) why do men marry?
I had a tough time trying to put this together but I think I have it.
Would I say women are selfish, diabolical, or ruthless because of those basic functions (which you've listed above)? No. In marital relationships these qualities are equal. I believe its important in marital relationship men and women have some emotional and physical dependencies, however it becomes diabolical, selfish, and ruthless when these dependencies are illusory to the real intention which is to take advantage of the person irrespective of their partners feelings towards them.
why do men marry?
I wouldn't know because reasons vary, but if I were to make an educated guess I would say religionist men marry for the same reasons as religionist women. There are no significant differences in these reasons and if there are please point them out in several cultures in the world where there are obvious significant differences.
Intraditional cultures both marry cause its the thing to do. Everyone does it. Women may seem more conniving as they are given the basic functional reality of caring for the children.
Sister I'm curious to ask (with no disrespect to you) do you understand the concept of conniving? It means to conspire against someone secretly in case you didn't know. So I was unsure of where you were going with the above bold, but perhaps I myself was not clear. If so, my apologies.
As you see in the west, where marriage is no longer the "norm" men feel no need to make a commitment. Why? Cause they don't need it to have access to sex.
I don't think the changes in family (e.g. marriages) are just from the result of what you've stated above. From studies since the 40's families have changed with the times which includes the advancement of technology (development and production of more vehicles) to the 80's with the creation of computers and internet. Women work more than they have and have more opportunities than they did so the shift in the family has changed. Men on the other hand when it comes to the family have not changed much except with the advancement of technology being more accessible. With respect to sex, the opportunity to access this is open to both genders how else can you account for the reported cases for STD's?
And interestingly, men tend to have more partners than women, men in many cultures can marry more than one woman. Women tend to do this far less. Women have more to loose, both socially and economically with the father or "man" involved. 
Hayfa I hope you weren't making this statement as a universal one? What you stated above is more along the lines of tradition and social conditioning verses what actually is and even so, this is limited to the type of society you live in. Again, I have to redirect us back to the state of California where there are women who see having multiple partners as a great benefit especially if they (these women) are materialist. If multiple partners are giving you money and other expenses this is a great benefit both economically and emotionally because you basically have nothing to lose. Again we can only address the issues of our respective societies using the experiences we have.
Am I making any sense?  
Yep.
I do think there are plenty of sweet and good women all over the world. Of course the oneswho do the bad stuff gets the press.
The bad women don't get the press in the sense that you have worded it. I believe this is just common knowledge among men period which has nothing to do with media. The only element I would say that may contribute to a mindset of addressing all women as bad is through family or through media but this is dependent uupon the society you live in. I firmly believe being bad is more of a common attribute in our planet than good. A lot of people do things out of pure selfishness than sincerity. 
As we see with the rate of AIDS, 75% of cases for women are getting it from their nonmonogamous partners-be it husband,  partner etc.  Women do tend to hve better impulse control (thinking of consequences) than men. 
How would the reported AIDS cases have anything to do with the character of women? I just recently did a report on AIDS cases in the world with the CDC (Center for Disease Control) and I'm curious what country is the 75% from? Or are you speaking in the general sense?

Edited by Israfil

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Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 January 2008 at 8:54am
	Hayfa you said: Israfil, would you say thatwomen can appear more "conniving" because in a basic functional sense, women have needed men more than women. Islam aside (marrying for Allah) why do men marry? I had a tough time trying to put this together but I think I have it. Would I say women are selfish, diabolical, or ruthless because of those basic functions (which you've listed above)? No. In marital relationships these qualities are equal. I believe its important in marital relationship men and women have some emotional and physical dependencies, however it becomes diabolical, selfish, and ruthless when these dependencies are illusory to the real intention which is to take advantage of the person irrespective of their partners feelings towards them. why do men marry? I wouldn't know because reasons vary, but if I were to make an educated guess I would say religionist men marry for the same reasons as religionist women. There are no significant differences in these reasons and if there are please point them out in several cultures in the world where there are obvious significant differences. Intraditional cultures both marry cause its the thing to do. Everyone does it. Women may seem more conniving as they are given the basic functional reality of caring for the children. Sister I'm curious to ask (with no disrespect to you) do you understand the concept of conniving? It means to conspire against someone secretly in case you didn't know. So I was unsure of where you were going with the above bold, but perhaps I myself was not clear. If so, my apologies. As you see in the west, where marriage is no longer the "norm" men feel no need to make a commitment. Why? Cause they don't need it to have access to sex. I don't think the changes in family (e.g. marriages) are just from the result of what you've stated above. From studies since the 40's families have changed with the times which includes the advancement of technology (development and production of more vehicles) to the 80's with the creation of computers and internet. Women work more than they have and have more opportunities than they did so the shift in the family has changed. Men on the other hand when it comes to the family have not changed much except with the advancement of technology being more accessible. With respect to sex, the opportunity to access this is open to both genders how else can you account for the reported cases for STD's? And interestingly, men tend to have more partners than women, men in many cultures can marry more than one woman. Women tend to do this far less. Women have more to loose, both socially and economically with the father or "man" involved. Hayfa I hope you weren't making this statement as a universal one? What you stated above is more along the lines of tradition and social conditioning verses what actually is and even so, this is limited to the type of society you live in. Again, I have to redirect us back to the state of California where there are women who see having multiple partners as a great benefit especially if they (these women) are materialist. If multiple partners are giving you money and other expenses this is a great benefit both economically and emotionally because you basically have nothing to lose. Again we can only address the issues of our respective societies using the experiences we have. Am I making any sense? Yep. I do think there are plenty of sweet and good women all over the world. Of course the oneswho do the bad stuff gets the press. The bad women don't get the press in the sense that you have worded it. I believe this is just common knowledge among men period which has nothing to do with media. The only element I would say that may contribute to a mindset of addressing all women as bad is through family or through media but this is dependent uupon the society you live in. I firmly believe being bad is more of a common attribute in our planet than good. A lot of people do things out of pure selfishness than sincerity. As we see with the rate of AIDS, 75% of cases for women are getting it from their nonmonogamous partners-be it husband, partner etc. Women do tend to hve better impulse control (thinking of consequences) than men. How would the reported AIDS cases have anything to do with the character of women? I just recently did a report on AIDS cases in the world with the CDC (Center for Disease Control) and I'm curious what country is the 75% from? Or are you speaking in the general sense? Edited by Israfil

martha Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 30 October 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1140	Post Options Post Reply Quote martha Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 January 2008 at 8:31am
	Sister Hayfa, You made a very valid point that men in the western culture dont feel the need to make the commitment to women in marriage. Of course it doesnt always apply, and some men make very good husbands. But I remember a comment made by an egotistical man, some years back. He was married but felt it acceptable to have mistresses whenever he chose. His view of marriage itself was that it was only legal prostitution! I'm sure no woman would never refer to marriage in this way. At least I hope they wouldnt.
	some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 January 2008 at 8:31am
	Lovesakennah it's quite obvious from your own experiences much like mine you stated some subjective truths about how you feel. I think the key to what you've stated was that the behavior of some women are "unthinkable" to you because they are not as prevalent as it is where I live. I have thus taken into account the state, city, and location where I live as contributing elements to everyday personality. I live in the fourth largest economy in the world and the second largest movie production state in the world. I live in a state where materialism i nsglamorized in films and in the media so its quite possible that all these elements contribute to an individual's personality. So allow me to again reiterate my previous statements and say all what I've said are with respect to my experiences and have not bearing on an objectivity nor are they generalizable, but I have seen common behavior exhibited by women. Where you come from Muslimah's marry for the sake of Allah which, from face value is a noble thing and have no doubt that such is true where you live. I am with viewing this statement however skeptical that Muslims do in fact marry for the sake of Allah. Without challenging the truthfulness of your statement are you certain those Muslimah's marry for the sake of Allah? I'm even skeptical of such statements. As a Muslim man I've always done thing not for the sake of Allah but for the sake of others (when I'm doing acts that may benefit another). If I love a woman and told her I marry her for the sake of another it does not sound humanly sincere (if that makes sense) rather it means in a semi-selfish way I'm doing such because "God told me to." This is not to get into a discussion about the semantics of words but to point out intentions in our relations with each other. If we love out of sincerity and care for that person without thinking of a benefit of ourselves we may in turn love for the sake of Allah. Just imagine someone giving you a card on your birthday and saying "the only reason I gave you a card was for your sake, because I think it nice." To some, it may not have no effect, but to others it may come across as an insincere gesture, only brought about through an occasion not from a self-motivating act. But more imporantly, my point in all this is in addressing the behavior of women in relationships some men do not know a woman's intention and with respect to the legal system here in the United States I have been firmly convinced women can, and could manipulate the system both in the marital sense and legal sense. Need I remind you that I am in law enforcement so we have delt with false cases of rape however these are far less common than the actual crime. Remeber sister your experiences (and words here) are strictly limited to where you live as well as mines and so the common area I can say we may agree is that human beings in both sexes males and females can be hurtful to each other. I just think its unfortunate that there are some women who are unappreciative of good men and are careless in both muslim and non-muslims. You ask "what would you do with men if it weren't for Islam? Isn't this such a biased and generalization? Oh by the way you mentioned alimony? I'm really curious where you live because in California (and other states where such happens) women seem to win everytime. I'm now convinced when I hit the 6 figure mark (which I have already) when I marry I'm getting a pre-nup. Edited by Israfil

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hayfa Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:58am
	Israfil, would you say thatwomen can appear more "conniving" because in a basic functional sense, women have needed men more than women. Islam aside (marrying for Allah) why do men marry? Intraditional cultures both marry cause its the thing to do. Everyone does it. Women may seem more conniving as they are given the basic functional reality of caring for the children.. in most cases. So thus security is a big thing. As you see in the west, where marriage is no longer the "norm" men feel no need to make a commitment. Why? Cause they don't need it to have access to sex. And interestingly, men tend to have more partners than women, men in many cultures can marry more than one woman. Women tend to do this far less. Women have more to loose, both socially and economically with the father or "man" involved. Am I making any sense? I do think there are plenty of sweet and good women all over the world. Of course the oneswho do the bad stuff gets the press. As we see with the rate of AIDS, 75% of cases for women are getting it from their nonmonogamous partners-be it husband, partner etc. Women do tend to hve better impulse control (thinking of consequences) than men. I think there will be abuse by some people. That is the choice we have in our lives.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

lovesakeenah Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 June 2007 Status: Offline Points: 459	Post Options Post Reply Quote lovesakeenah Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 January 2008 at 7:11am
	"Your statement of'giving up on women' was ambigious&I just assumed,'you didn't want anything to do with women,personally or professionally'.Sorry for the wrong assumption. Just like I said earlier,the examples you've stated about the'unthinkable things' women do isn't prevalent where I come from.Now,am not trying to be self-righteous here,but I've grown to a point in my life where'disappointments' by humans like myself doesn't throw me off balance.So,the distrust I have wasn't what I chose,but it was a resolution I had to make to keep my sanity as I can't deal with the thought of'infidelity' in relationships.I don't distrust'all the men' I've known in my life,like my father,brother,cousins&the rest.But,I've had my fair share of 'heartbreaks'& I know it might be hard to convince you,but the fault wasn't mine.That am very clear&certain about.I grew to a point of wanting to pursue a career&just live my life without having to worry about someone hurting me,especially when the person in question is a close relation. Where I come from,Muslimahs marry for the sake of Allah.They bear all the baggage that comes with marital bliss&heartaches,astagfirullah.They hang-in-there.They're not as mean as some women who woud kill their husbands for 'alimony'(we don't even have that).They carry on with life like everything's fine,when it's actually not.I look at some of these women(Muslimahs)&pray that Allah rewards them for their patience&forbearance. In our non-Islamic world on the other hand,I have seen same women with love&devotion to their marriages.I can't really begin to narrate the very irritating incidents I had been witness to.How I ask myself,"what would I ever do with men,if not for Islam"?I mean,I have seen these things& as much as I agree that women could be deceitful,manipulative&impatient(esp where material things are concerned); I have seen far worse of men&just had to learn to accept the fact that,"humans would always be humans". I rest my case!!
	"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 17 January 2008 at 1:22am
	lovesakeenah, Very nice post but I may disagree with you on several points. Without involving any of my own clinical studies I'll relate to you my own observations of the many people (of many ethnic and national origins) I've came across to. I would like to first acknowledge in agreeing with you that you are right and in exclaiming the truth that all human beings are different. From the patterns of our fingers to the pigmentations of our skins we all have unique qualities. HOWEVER, as I've mentioned already I've observed many personalities and although there are varying differences there are what I've come to known, "common behavior." For example with respect to a traditional and conservative setting women want men for certain things such as food, and shelter as well as security (security I define as the basic emotional elements e.g. trust, love, affection) in both the physical and emotional aspect. But these basic necessities I find are mostly common to women ( a generalizable fact as it appears from here).Like most relationships that fail there is a sense of defensiveness in both men and women and this is a common reaction to the failure of a relationship in which the emotion (what Freud would call the ego) protects itself from being hurt again thereby refraining from the natural reaction of allowing someone to get close. but unfortunately lovesakeenah you have extended your own version of truth from what I meant in such a small paragraph in my previous post. What I truly meant was that instead of holding women in such high esteem as I've done in the past I have instead concluded that women are on the same level as men in the sense of emotional output. Women much like men, are diabolical coniving and deceiving. I am even tempted to tip the scale in favor of women in this respect but because (I do not know every single woman on the planet so a generalization of this magnitude would be false). I have recently conseled women who have confessed to lying to their ex husbands on child support. I have spoken with women who have confessed to lying about rape just to keep a man. I have spoken with women who lie cheat and steal. Of course this is not to say a man does not do this but the point is, is that with respect to my own faith I have come to the realization that I shouldn't have to bend over backwards for a women and although women should be treated with absolute equal respect, they should also do the same for a man. For example if a man takes care of a woman a woman shoudl take care of a man. Too many times I've spoken with Muslimahs who interpret the Islamic doctrine concerning the treatment of women as a way of "milking" the man. Of course this is limited to my own experience and not generalizable to everyone else but my point is it exist. In addition, so many times women use bearing children as a reaosn to use against this (the equal treatement in relationships) and I would say that conceiving a child is a choice both partners made and should not be used as leverage against the other in arguments rather, it should be a celebration and support between both participants. Just because women give birth doesn't mean women are extra special and should be treated special because women in the sense of giving birth are as important as men. Lovesakeenah you said: Giving up on women isn't a 'solution'.It is a'denial' Hmmm how am I in "denial?" I said in my own personal life ( not my clinical practice) I've given up on women and trying to understand them but this is not to say I do not want a relationship with a woman. The human personality is too complex to try to understand in a friendly way, rather, I'd just try to take what I can get and go from there. However, despite your opposition to my generalization you did not address the following: "Funnily, I have a distrust of men" With the same tone I have a distrust of women as well. I don't even trust Muslims. Being in the sam religion as me does not make one impervious to doing ill will to other humans. I believe if women wanted to, could really do much psychological damage to men and could really abuse the Western legal system. Because women have some say in the law women can and could manipulate the western legal system. Again as I've said before I've spoken with women who have falsified their stories for an agenda this is not to say men haven't but to point out that women are just like men in every sense and this have a commonality among them.

lovesakeenah Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 13 June 2007 Status: Offline Points: 459	Post Options Post Reply Quote lovesakeenah Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 January 2008 at 9:38am
	Am sorry I can't go into details,but I've had my fair share as well.But it hasn't stopped me from being who I truly am.I can't let some ingrates confuse me that ther're no good men around.Though,they might be hard to find.I don't mean to sound controversial,but I have equally learnt over time that even being religious doesn't make anyone "infallible".That attribute belongs to Allah only.I've been privileged to listen to the ordeals of some Sisters&I just had to tell them to take solace in Allah&expect reward from him. Sis.Hayfa,it doesn't happen in the West alone.But Africans also have youths who have been influenced by the Western world& some,just being who they really are.You're right to think 'all men want is sex,as a teenager'.I mean,that's just what we see all around,till date.Sorry if am drifting away from the main topic here.There're teenage pregnancies flying around like the air we breathe in.And loads of bastards.So,you were not wrong to think that way cos ifwe want to look at it,how many of those 'relationships' ends up in marriage?
	"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".

Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Post Options Post Reply Quote Hayfa Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 16 January 2008 at 6:40am
	Yes there are conniving women. And there areconniving men.. Sad as a reality isn't it? Funnily, I have a distrust of men. That does not mean that thee are not good men byany means. But men appear to be from Mars.. lol A huge part is that generally men and women want certain things and how it is demonstrated or fufilled is not often complementary. Women discuss feelings and chat more easily. Men less so. As a girl growing up in the west. I thought the only thing men wanted was sex with nothing of caring involved. As a nonMuslim there is of course intermingling. How many men (boys and young men) would tell me they "loved" me upon first meeting. All in one aim. It made me very wary of men. It made me tihnk that all men look at with women is the superficial... what they are like (how they look) on the outside.
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi