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seekshidayath View Drop Down

Senior Member

Female Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357

Posted: 15 January 2009 at 6:22pm

Usmani wrote:

Dear Br. Asad Raza

QUOTE:-Panjetan is a word usually reffered to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w), Hazrat Fatima (s.a), Imam Ali (a.s), Imam Hassan (a.s) and Imam Hussain (a.s) in the sub-continent...

I did not ask for it.Any way since you have brought it here and this what we are discussing here as well. See you are failed to brought any hadith where Prophet(pbuh) him self clearly said that these five are the only ale bayt. Instead verse 33:33 of Quran clearly says wives of the Prophet(pbuh) Ale-bayt.Hadith of Bukhari with the haditrh reference provided to you where Prophet(pbuh) him self calling Hazrat Aisha(RA) ahle-bayt .But it seems that without any clear reference from Quran and Sunnah you people have made your aqida that these five are ale-bayt excluding the Prophet�s (pbuh)wives and Ali(RA),Fatima(RA),Hasan(RA),Hussain(RA)are infallible as well.May be that is become so common in shia commnity that this panjatan can be seen in almost every shia mosque here in Pakistan.If you still can�t see yours wrong understanding from Quran and Sunnah with the clear proves provided to you then I can do any thing more.

Quote:-Please note that Al-Wahidi is quoting a Hadith when he says it was revealed for five people...

Moreover, why did they not include, Khadija RA ? I wish to read any hadith from your books either ?

Br. usmani, the problem with the discussions with shiates is they don't accept our books of hadiths like Bukhari and Muslim, They don't accept the narrations of Ayesha or Abu Hurayrah RA, and they give us there books for referring. How is it possible that we come to common terms ? Moreover there Taqqiyah ? How can we even trust if they are discussing fairly with us ?

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222

Posted: 16 January 2009 at 2:01am

What I have said it is mentioned in the Quranic commentary Tafheem-ul-Quran written by Maudoodi sahib.He did not mention the reference from where he took it from.

Thus, the claim of �Aisha being already included� is at least seriously questionable even from referencing point of view.

I am not saying that this hadith of sahih Muslim is not relible.It is a reliable hadith but taking the meaning from it that the wives of Prophet (pbuh) are not Ahle bayt is not correct.It is never said in the hadith.

First I should emphasize that the word Ahle bayt (people of house) has a general meaning that everyone can guess. Everyone knows that wives of a man may be called generally Ahle bayt (people of the house) since they are living with that man in his house (as long as they are not divorced). However, in this hadith, obviously the prophet does not refer to this general meaning of the word Ahlul bayt because: 1- He is calling his grand children and Ali (as) as Ahle bayt while none of them had been living with the prophet in one house. 2- If the prophet wanted to refer to a simple general meaning, it would not make sense to use a cloak to make a boundary around specific people. 3- Clearly and literally, in this hadith the prophet has claimed the purity only for those people under the cloak, look:

�� he also took him under it and then said: Allah only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)�

Logically speaking, the act of the prophet confirms it: discriminating usage of a cloak to show the difference by making a boundary. In this hadith, obviously the Prophet (sawa) intended to highlight a characteristic for these four people which neither belongs to the wives nor anyone else at that time. This is what my intellect can logically understand from the hadith. Otherwise, the hadith (regarding the act of the prophet) would make no sense.

From Quran we know that the Prophet(pbuh) wives are ahle bayt with clear wording

Do you mean 33:33? How can one clearly know (Only from Quran) that to whom the last part of the verse 33:33 is talking? Do you think it is clear wording because the pervious sentences are about the wives? One may guess so, but I think it is not convincing. I do not call it clear wording.

Haith of bukhari says the same with clear wording of Prophet(pbuh).

The hadith of Bukhari is not about 33:33 and the event of cloak. It might refer to the general meaning of Ahlul Bayt as I explained above.

The hadith of Muslim telling us,in addition of the wives are ahle bayt as we know from Quran and sahih bukhari, Ali(RA),Fatima(RA).Hasan(RA), Hussain(RA) are also ahle bayt.

It is neither proved from Quran nor from Hadith that the word Ahlul Bayt in 33:33 is about the wives of the prophet (or that the wives are included). Historically, if the wives were already included in the definition of 33:33, the prophet should have had already performed the same usage of cloak for the wives. But we know that the prophet performed it only one time. If the cloak does not have any meaning here why the prophet used it at all? To waste the time?!!

After all, let me quote another version of the "Tradition of Cloak" written in Sahih al-Tirmidhi, which is narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows:

The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

Now by very clear wording in this hadith, Mohammad (sawa) excluded his wife. Is Sahih al-Tirmidhi also reliable to you beside Bukhari and Muslim?

Edited by myahya - 16 January 2009 at 2:10am

Chrysalis

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Points: 2033

Posted: 16 January 2009 at 9:39am

myahya wrote:

Do you mean 33:33? How can one clearly know (Only from Quran) that to whom the last part of the verse 33:33 is talking? Do you think it is clear wording because the pervious sentences are about the wives? One may guess so, but I think it is not convincing. I do not call it clear wording.

Mindboggling . . .

DUH ! The verse is clearly referring to the wives of Propher Muhammad. Allah uses the word 'Ahlal Bayt' for them:

Verse 32 says:

33:32

"O Consorts of the Prophet!". . .

Allah is adderessing the wives of Prophet Muhammad directly in the verses that follow, which includes V.33

Notice that Verse 33 starts with 'and' which clearly means it is a continuation of the previous verse. The Wives are adderessed.

Even if we did not have verse 30 to make matters clear, Verse 33 is very clear wording, and one does not have to 'guess' who the subject of the verse is. . .

VERSE 33: And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless."

Word used for members of the family : "ahlaalbayti wayutahhirakum "

How can you be confused about who is bieng adderessed. How is it not clear wording? If not the wives of the Prophet, who else is bieng adderessed here in this verse? Can u pl answer that?

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."

asda

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Joined: 02 September 2008
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Points: 164

Posted: 16 January 2009 at 1:05pm

br Chrysalis

actually we are not confused but sad to see a confused view from your side...reading the verse before 33:33 confirms about the purication issue....

br usmani..
can you bring sufficient proof of your claim on the type of purity...cuz i hav shown you few books of tafseer which talks about spiritual purity only....can you please give me a reason for your rejection??

Usmani

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Location: Pakistan
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Points: 184

Posted: 18 January 2009 at 2:36am

Sister Seekshidayath,

You are correct sister and may be this the reason one can�t see the essence of actual religion in their life. The way they practice religion especially in the month of murraram is good enough to understand it. It is not just the common people but you listen to their religious personalities on TV the way they conduct magalis.The ahaith of Prophet(pbuh) in sahih bukari,muslim and all others the recognized one are full of wisdom.They cover the every aspect of life from Iteqadaat,Ibadaat,Mamlaat,Mashrat and Ikhlaq every thing is there.When one won�t make use of them so how can he will know them and follow the religion which was brought by the Prophet(pbuh).

The kind of care taken in compiling these ahadith and the science develop in this this regards is realy the outstanding job.Thousands of people life history is there in ismaual rejaal who ever happand to be involved in narration of ahadith.To reject them in one setence is very essasy job.

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds

Usmani

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Joined: 07 September 2006
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 184

Posted: 18 January 2009 at 4:20am

mayahay,

Quote:-Logically speaking, the act of the prophet confirms it: discriminating usage of a cloak to show the difference by making a boundary. In this hadith, obviously the Prophet (sawa) intended to highlight a characteristic for these four people which neither belongs to the wives nor anyone else at that time. This is what my intellect can logically understand from the hadith. Otherwise, the hadith (regarding the act of the prophet) would make no sense.

To understand to whom Prophet(pbuh) referring is ahle bayt correctly one has to study all the material we found in all the ahadith concerning ahle bayt.

Quote:-Do you mean 33:33? How can one clearly know (Only from Quran) that to whom the last part of the verse 33:33 is talking? Do you think it is clear wording because the pervious sentences are about the wives? One may guess so, but I think it is not convincing. I do not call it clear wording.

Not just previous verses from verse 28 and up to verse 33 but the next verse is also referring to the wives of Prophet(pbuh).

And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the communications of Allah and the wisdom; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware.(33:34)

we see the verse 33

And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

Now we see the verse 34

And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the communications of Allah and the wisdom; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware

It clearly can be seen here that verse 34 is in the continuation of the previous verse 33, and from the last part of verse 33.Who ever said the ahle bayt and and said Allah want to purifying them in the last part of verse 33.In next verse Allah speaking to the very same people.and verse 34 address to the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) as well.

So there not a small daught remains about that Allah is referring Ahle bayt to the wives of the Prophet(pbuh).

Quote:-The hadith of Bukhari is not about 33:33 and the event of cloak. It might refer to the general meaning of Ahlul Bayt as I explained above.

Yours explanation is not based on the words of God or the Prophet(pbuh) so it has no weight at all and rather it is going against the Quran and the Prophets(pbuh) words.

Quote:-if the wives were already included in the definition of 33:33, the prophet should have had already performed the same usage of cloak for the wives. But we know that the prophet performed it only one time.

After clear words of Quran there was no need to perform the same usage of clock for the wives. People already knew or will know that wives of prophet are ahle bayt.

Quote:- If the cloak does not have any meaning here why the prophet used it at all? To waste the time?!!

To let the people knows that these four of family member are ahle bayt as well as it was not clear from the Quran.

Quote:-The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

Now by very clear wording in this hadith, Mohammad (sawa) excluded his wife. Is Sahih al-Tirmidhi also reliable to you beside Bukhari and Muslim?

It is not said here that Umm-Salma (RA) is excluded here. It said to her that you remain in your position and what is her position is, see in the verse 33:33 and sahih bukhari hadith which I quoted earlier. No need to come up with yours own version in the presence of Allah and Prophet(pbuh) words in this regards.

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds

myahya

Senior Member

Joined: 06 February 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222

Posted: 19 January 2009 at 2:17am

Chrysalis

DUH ! The verse is clearly referring to the wives of Propher Muhammad. Allah uses the word 'Ahlal Bayt' for them.

The first part of 33:33 is talking about the wives but it does not prove that the last part which contains the explanation about the purity of Ahlul-Bayt must be addressing the wives. in this post I will explain why.

Notice that Verse 33 starts with 'and' which clearly means it is a continuation of the previous verse.

The last part does not start with �and�, does it? Please read the Arabic version one more time: �Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless�. Dislike the translation you quoted in your last post, in fact there is no �and� here. When referring to a translation, we should take care as much as possible to neither add a word to Quran nor remove a word of it.

How can you be confused about who is bieng adderessed. How is it not clear wording? If not the wives of the Prophet, who else is bieng adderessed here in this verse? Can u pl answer that?

We are not confused. Not only one can not clearly conclude from Quran that the last part of 33:33 backs to the wives, but the reverse can also be understood. Asda has highlighted the key sentences from the previous verses which all prove the fallibility of the wives which apparently contradicts the meaning of the last part of 33:33.

Let me tell you why I say one can not conclude that the last part is about the wives:

1- We know that 33:33 starts with �and�. It correctly talks about wives and uses feminine attached pronoun like �kunna� in �Boutokunna�:

33:33 And stay quietly in your houses (Boutokunna), and make not a dazzling display (Tabajjarna), like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish (Aghemna) regular Prayer, and give (Aatayna) regular Charity; and obey (Ate�na) Allah and His Apostle. "

However, in the rest of the verse and exactly on the following sentences regarding Ahlul-Bayt, the pronoun is suddenly switched from feminine to masculine like �kum�. Although they are both �You� in English but in Arabic they are distinguishable, look:

Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you (Ankum), ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless (wayuttahhirakum).

If this last part was about wives �kunna� had to be used instead of �kum�.

2- A study in history and hadith shows that the last part �Allah only wishes�� is not revealed at the same time of the previous verses about wives.

Edited by myahya - 19 January 2009 at 2:42am

myahya

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Joined: 06 February 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 222

Posted: 19 January 2009 at 2:18am

Usmani

To understand to whom Prophet(pbuh) referring is ahle bayt correctly one has to study all the material we found in all the ahadith concerning ahle bayt.

All the ahadith are saying the same, Beside Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Tirmidhi, below are more references of the Tradition of Cloak who reported both versions of the tradition:

(1) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v6, pp 323,292,298; v1, pp 330-331; v3, p252; v4, p107 from Abu Sa'id al-Khudri

(2) Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p578, Tradition #978

(3) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p416 (two traditions) from Ibn Abi Salama, v3, pp 146-148 (five traditions), pp 158,172

(4) al-Khasa'is, by an-Nisa'i, pp 4,8

(5) al-Sunan, by al-Bayhaqi, narrated from Aisha and Umm Salama

(6) Tafsir al-Kabir, by al-Bukhari (the author of Sahih), v1, part 2, p69

(7) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v2, p700 (Istanbul), from Aisha

(8) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, pp 198,605 from Aisha and Umm Salama

(9) Tafsir Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, pp 5-8 (from Aisha and Abu Sa'id al-Khudri), pp 6,8 (from Ibn Abi Salama) (10 traditions)

(10) Tafsir al-Qurtubi, under the commentary of verse 33:33 from Umm Salama

(11) Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p485 (Complete version) from Aisha and Umar Ibn Abi Salama

(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12; v4, p79 narrated from Ibn Abi Salama

(13) Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, sec. 1, p221 from Umm Salama

(14) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb Baghdadi, v10, narrated from Ibn Abi Salama

(15) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, v1, p193 narrated from Aisha

(16) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v1, pp 332-336 (seven traditions)

(17) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibb al-Tabari, pp21-26, from Abu Sa'id Khudri

(18) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p166 (by several transmitters)

... and more ...

Not just previous verses from verse 28 and up to verse 33 but the next verse is also referring to the wives of Prophet(pbuh).

I explained the difference regarding the pronouns used in the last part of verse 33:33 and that there is no �and� as you all use it wrongly from translations. Please read my previous post.

Yours explanation is not based on the words of God or the Prophet(pbuh)

If you do not want to accept my words do not. You do not have to accept them. I am presenting my reasons beside Quran and Hadith. If you find problem or mistake with them, then discuss. People read them and understand. You do not need to judge and accuse me based on your emotions and bias.

After clear words of Quran there was no need to perform the same usage of clock for the wives.

Please read my previous post to Chrysalis.

To let the people knows that these four of family member are ahle bayt as well �It is not said here that Umm-Salma (RA) is excluded here. It said to her that you remain in your position and what is her position is, see in the verse 33:33 and sahih bukhari hadith which I quoted earlier. No need to come up with yours own version in the presence of Allah and Prophet(pbuh) words in this regards.

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) did not say: "These are among the Members of my House". He rather said: "These are the Members of my House".

Regarding Umm-Salama (sa) In the tradition of al-Hakim the wording the last question and answer is as follows:

Umm Salama said: "O Prophet of Allah! Am I not one of the members of your family?" The Holy Prophet replied: "You have a good future but only these are the members of my family. O Lord! The members of my family are more deserving."

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p416

Also the wording reported by al-Suyuti and Ibn al-Athir is as follows:

Umm Salama said to the Holy Prophet: "Am I also one of them?" He replied: "No. You have your own special position and your future is good."

Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v2, p289
Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, p198

Also al-Tabari quotes Umm Salama saying:

I said, "O Prophet of Allah! Am I not also one of your Ahlul-Bayt?" I swear by the Almighty that the Holy Prophet did not grant me any distinction and said: "You have a good future."

Tafsir al-Tabari, v22, p7 under the commentary of verse 33:33

Edited by myahya - 19 January 2009 at 2:30am