Shiitism

Salaams..

since br myahya has been discussing due to my inability to promptly respond due to my uni xams, i would like to request him to read through the thread before posting further since i will be unavailable for more than a week now....i would also advice br myahya to take each point one by one and go into the depths of it....

since i will be not here for some time and still would be reading wats going on, i would like to address some side-issues on this thread inshallah..

seekshidayath wrote: � Moreover, why did they not include, Khadija RA ? I wish to read any hadith from your books either ? � Br. usmani, the problem with the discussions with shiates is they don't accept our books of hadiths like Bukhari and Muslim, They don't accept the narrations of Ayesha or Abu Hurayrah RA, and they give us there books for referring. How is it possible that we come to common terms ? Moreover there Taqqiyah ? How can we even trust if they are discussing fairly with us ? � �

are you asking us y dint we include H.Z Kadija (s.a)?? well this query if it is for us does not make sense at all....i mean, are you trying to tell us that it is us who personally decide who this aayah is talking about by our liking??? i am sad to read that if that question is address to the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s)..

you also wanted to know about this story in our books, read through the following link, it contains the compilation of this hadith:
http://www.duas.org/hadis-e-kisa.htm

regarding the taqayyah issue u have brought up....i would remind u that taqayyah as u see it is not a joke for us....it is only allowed in extreme conditions when one fears the loosing of ones life/respect...for further information on this issue pleas read through my reply on:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13955&PN=

i have only one post on that page which is relevent to the topic...

Usmani wrote: <P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Sister Seekshidayath,<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN> <P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You are correct sister and may be this the reason one can�t see the essence of actual religion in their life. The way they practice religion especially in the month of murraram is good enough to understand it. It is not just the common people but you listen to their religious personalities on TV the way they conduct magalis.The ahaith of Prophet(pbuh) in sahih bukari,muslim and all others the recognized one are full of wisdom.They cover the every aspect of life from Iteqadaat,Ibadaat,Mamlaat,Mashrat and Ikhlaq every thing is there.When one won�t make use of them so how can he will know them and follow the religion which was brought by the Prophet(pbuh). <P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt">The kind of care taken in compiling these ahadith and the science develop in this this regards is realy the outstanding job.Thousands of people life history is there in ismaual rejaal who ever happand to be involved in narration of ahadith.To reject them in one setence is very essasy job.</SPAN> <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN> <P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>

Frankly for a fact, we dont see the essence of Islam brought by rasulullah (s.a.w) among the ahlus sunnah...i mean look at the lavish lives all your leaders lives...moreover knowing about the types of lives some of your scholars live simply amazes me...

infact the essence of Islam was seen by Syed Tejani a convert in our hawzah (islamic schools) in najaf....he describes his whole account of what happened in najaf in his book Then I was Guided....Being someone who had visited varios places like Al-Azhar university in egypt, the only Place he could find the true essence of Islam is in Najaf...

I would also like to add here that we dont completely reject whats written in bukhari....Ahaadith which are inline with quran, who would reject that?? surly nobody....

Regarding Hadith from abu harayra and aysha, if the hadith which are inline with quran, then obviosly we will accept it....but sadly we did find some hadith narrated by both of them which are there in bukhari/muslim as well and were not inline with whats given in quran, thus we dont consider them authentic narrators....i hope u get my point...

Usmani, Let us discuss what you sent in more detail:

In the first place the report says that the word ahlulbayt are wives because the verse has been revealed to highlight their (wives) dignified status and he used to say that he was ready to enter into a Mubahalah.

The claim is not evidence based. Such a Mubahala took place or not? If yes, we are willing to know the result. To let you know the means of prophet�s highlighting, beside all the ahadith I have already presented, please read the following:

Anas Ibn Malik narrated:

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF), from the time the revelation of "Verily Allah intends to... (the last part of Verse 33:33)" and for six months thereafter, stood by the door of the House of Fatimah and said: "Time for Prayer Ahlul-Bayt; No doubt! Allah wished to remove all abomination from you and make you pure and spotless."

• Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v12, p85
• Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, p258
• Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p158 who wrote this tradition is authentic as per the criteria of Muslim and Bukhari
• Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, pp 197,199
• Tafsir Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, pp 5,6 (saying seven month)
• Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p483
• Musnad, by al-Tiyalasi, v8, p274
• Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v5, p146

Abu al-Hamra narrated:

"The Messenger of God continued eight months in Medina, coming to the door of Ali at every morning prayer, putting his two hands on the two sides of the door and exclaiming : "Assalat! Assalat! (prayer! prayer!) Certainly God ward off all uncleanness from you, O Members of the House of Muhammad, and to make you pure and spotless."

• Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti, v5, pp 198-199
• Tafsir Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v22, p6
• Tafsir Ibn Kathir, v3, p483
• Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p24 on the authority of Anas Ibn Malik
• Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v5, p637
• Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir, v5, p146
• Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, pp 121,168
• Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, p338

Also Ibn Abbas (RA) narrated:

"We have witnessed the Messenger of God for nine months coming to the door of Ali, son of Abu Talib, at the time of each prayer and saying: 'Assalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah Ahlul-Bayt (Peace and Mercy of God be upon you, O Members of the House). Certainly God wants only to keep away all the evil from you, Members of the House, and purify you with a thorough purification.' He did these seven times a day."

• al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p198

And there are more. Everyone can find the means of highlighting that the prophet has exploited to the full for ahlul-bayt. Furthermore, it is also useful to remind that Ali (as), Fatima(as), Hasan(as) and Husain(as) were the only people whom the prophet(as) brought to his very well known Mubahalah against the leaders of the Christians.

Then the report says: several narrations of hadith reported by Ibn Katar bear witness that Ali (as), Fatima (as), Hasan (as) and Husain (as) are also included.

The wives are considered already included in the meaning of the last part of 33:33 in the absence of any evidence and proof and in contrast to huge number of historical authentic references on the fact that who are Ahlul-Bayt in the purification verse.

After saying several reliable ahadith on this subject, Ibn Khathir has said in reality there is no contradiction �

Such a contradiction is man-made. In fact, there is no contradiction because the presence of the wives in this meaning can not be concluded at all.

The sound position is that under the words: �ahlulbayt� the blessed wives are included in any way because they themselves are the cause of the revelation of this verse.

It seems that I have to prove the cause of the revelation of the purification verse again, for example:

The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (sawa) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending."

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 351,663

The purification verse is revealed in the house of wives and the wives were witnesses to the recitation and the event of the cloak. This does not necessitate that the cause of the revelation were the wives.  

And at both places in this verse, before and after it, the address is to the wives of the prophet (as) using the form of feminine gender.

The location of the verse by itself can not prove such a claim, can it? We can not say there is no doubt that this independent part is about the wives only because the verses before and after are about the wives.

But about the infallibility, could you please tell us from where in the meaning of the last part the information about the legal purification can be carried out? Even from the explanation of the writer about the verse: Allah (SWT) will keep the ahlul-bayt protected against satanic instigations, sins, evils and cleanse them pure. On the other hand, legal purification proposed by Islam is theoretically for human being and practically for the Ummah and not only for ahlulbayt. Therefore, it does not make any sense to reveal a verse to highlight a characteristic of Ahlul-bayt which is exactly the same for every individual of the Ummah.

Furthermore, would you please show us where in Quran the infallibility appears only to be hallmark of the prophets, as it is claimed in this report?

The relation of the verse 33:34 with the last part of 33:33 is also obvious. We know that the purification verse is revealed in the house of wives and the prophet recited it to the wives and the wives were witnesses according to sahih ahadith (many of the ahadith are mentioned by the wives themselves). In 33:34 it is reminding them and warning the wives to keep in their mind the verses of Quran which are recited to them in their houses. By absolute evidence of huge number of references from ahadith and history, there is no doubt that the very particular example which is mentioned right before 33:34 is the purification verse to ahlul-bayt about Ali (as), Fatima (as), Hasan (as) and Husain (as) happened in the wives houses and recited to them.

Edited by myahya - 23 January 2009 at 6:30am

Brother Asad Raza,

 

Hope that you will fine with the grace of Allah subhanu watala

Quote:-i would again request the members not to spread this debate out....just for a clear evidence, u can look up into this hadith:

 

>>> Brother ponder on the Quran carefully, Prophet Abraham�s wife were called ahle bayt in the Quran.So it is clear from Quran that wife is falls in ahle bayt.Look at the Arabic grammar, wife is included in ahle bayt.Ponder on verse 28 to 34 of sura 33, verse 34 start with "and" the verse 34 is also address to the wives of the Prophet(pbuh).So its shows the continuations from the last part of verse 33.Its shows that last part of verse 33 is said to the wives(may Allah be pleased with all of them). Hadith of sahih bukari is clearly showing that Prophet(pbuh) has called Hazrat Aisha as ahle bayt.On the other hand hadith of the cloak does not excluded the wives.Now things here are very clear brother .I can understand that it will be very hard for you to accept this reality being belong to Shiite community. If we will carry on our discussion to just win the debate so it will not serve any purpose.

Edited by Usmani - 12 February 2009 at 12:20am

Salaam'alikum..

while everybody are having their final words on this issue..i thot i shud hav mine as well...

Brother Usmani, I have no problems in accepting ure point of view if it had been inline with what the Prophet (s.a.w) had said....I dont know y u dare to discard the clearest hadith from Sahih Bukhari Posted......

Inshallah i think all parties on this thread have made themselves clear and inshallah it wud be helpful to the readers...and the brothers out here would look at the what is written dan concentrate who is the writer....inshallah....in the end..we all are muslims...and...what i believe is that it is "TAQWA" that matters...

wsalaam'alaikum warah matullahi wabaarakatu...