|
Question about the Prophet |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1234> |
| Author | ||
Akhe Abdullah 
Senior Member 
Male Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1252 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: 15 September 2009 at 12:47pm |
|
|
Wa Alaikum As Salaam,Salahuddeen.JazakAllah Kheiran for the clarifacations.
 May Allah reward you for your efforts.
|
||
 |
||
|
Pati
Senior Member 
Female Joined: 10 April 2009 Location: Spain Status: Offline Points: 304 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 15 September 2009 at 1:10pm |
|
|
Hi Salahuddeen2009,
Thank you very much for your long and documented post.
If you allow me, I will start with a quote from the Bible, including something you quoted too (From John, Chapter #5):
There is no mistake in what I said, there is only a disagreement because, again, for US as Christians Jesus was God, and for you as Muslims Jesus was only a Prophet.
When the Bible says "God's Son", we mean, Jesus was sent to the Earth by God in the way of his Son, part of him (and I don't mean Father in phisical way, we don't mean that God "engendered" Jesus, just that God sent Jesus in the way of His Son). In the name of the Father (God), de Son (Jesus) and the Holly Spirit (Faith), that's how we start our prays as Catholics.
Just note what the verse #20 says: The Father (God) shows the Son (Jesus) everything He Himself does (miracles). The same way that any father in this world will teach his son everything he knows.
So, for us, Jesus was doing the miracles following the teachings of his Father (God), and at the same time, as part of Him.
Regards
|
||
|
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
||
|
||
|
salahuddeen2009
Newbie 
Male Joined: 01 September 2009 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 September 2009 at 12:25pm |
|
|
salam sisterPati
You picked only one phrase& made your comment about it,but you left the other phrases,in summary you didnt answer the following questions:
1)could jesus do any miracle by his own POWER?yes or no?(according to the past phrases from the Bible the answer is a BIG "NOOOOOOOOO"
2)why did jesus pray many times to God?is jesus a Deficient God who needs the help of His God?or in a better way,is he not a God at all?
(LOGIC THINKING SAYS THAT GOD SHOULD BE "SELF-SUFFICIENT",not needing to pray,kneel nor put his face in the ground for his "own god"!!)!!
 3)you said that( I don't mean Father in phisical way, we don't mean that God "engendered" Jesus, just that God sent Jesus in the way of His Son)your statement here means that jesus isn't Physical son of God,so can you explain to me these 2 phrases in the bible,to clarify the concept of FATHERHOOD that you believe in:
My questions here are 2 also: Firstly:what's the difference between the fatherhood of God to Jesus & the fatherhood of God to the audience(ordinary people) in the past two phrases(according to islamic scholars we believe that the word father in the Bible is a mistranslation of the word Guardian,in Aramic,that's all,because Allah,God,stated in the Holy Qur'an that He's father of No One,Fatherhood doesn't fit with His Majesty),
All what you need you to do is just to remove the word father from the past two phrases& put the word Guardian,then the confusion will be OVER,just as simple as that,you can do the same by replacing the word Son of God,by the word Slave of God then go & RE-read the new testament with these 2 CORRECTIONs
Secondly:Who's the God Of Jesus ,according to his speach in John 20:17?can God be the God of a part of himself(is this what you believe,sister)????!!
 I'll suumarize your belief to you,I want you just to read it loudly,to yourself,then ask yourself (IS THis The TRUTH?! Is This what you feel comfort with?)
This's what you believe,as a catholic Christian,:
GOD HAD SENT GOD (BOTH OF THEM ARE ONE) TO BE KILLED ON THE CROSS AFTER GOD PRAYED TO GOD TO RELIEVE GOD'S PASSIONS ,BUT GOD WANTED ALL THIS SUFFERINGS TO HAPPEN TO GOD IN ORDER THAT GOD WOULD FORGIVE HUMANS FOR A SIN THAT GOD KNOWS FOR SURE THAT THEY HAD NO HAND IN IT,BUT IT MADE GOD GET ANGRY WITH ALL OF THEM!!
IN SUMMARY: GOD HAD SENT GOD TO MAKE GOD SUFFER TILL GOD'S DEATH ON THE CROSS ,TO MAKE GOD HAPPY !! ISN'T THIS WHAT YOU BELIEVE?SISTER?
OH MY GOD!!!  THE BELIEF OF SOMEONE SHOULD BE AT LEAST ""LOGIC""!!Sister,
we are now in the last days of the holy month of Ramadan,we as muslims obeyed God's orders by withstanding the sufferings of fasting the 30 days of Ramadan,to show Him our loyalty,BUT YOU DID NOT,you were just eating & drinking,& DENYING ALL THESE OBLIGATIONS,sister
we spent the Nights doing salat & reciting the Holy Quran(the last Testament of God to the Humans,BUT YOU DID NOT,you were just sleeping & DENYING all this ,sister
we pray 5 times daily(Salat) in the way That Allah(God of Adam,Abraham,Moses,David,Jesus&Mohammad)had ordered us to do,,,BUT YOU DID NOT,you were just enjoying your life & DENYING ALL THESE OBLIGATORY SALATS,sister
then after all this,you say:I'm in peace with GOD!!??
IS THIS LOGIC<SISTER>???
GOD SAYS IN THE HOLY QUR'AN,SURA 5:116-120:
116. And (remember) when All�h will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O ��s� (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: �Worship me and my mother as two gods besides All�h?� " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours; truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden (and unseen). 117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (All�h) did command me to say: �Worship All�h, my Lord and your Lord.� And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them; and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world). 118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You, are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise[1]." 119. All�h will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. All�h is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise). 120. To All�h belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things. Edited by salahuddeen2009 - 16 September 2009 at 5:08pm |
||
|
||
|
honeto
Senior Member 
Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 September 2009 at 12:26pm |
|
|
Hi Pati,
as you have known by now that Islamic understanding is that the miracles were done through God's prophets only with God's help and permission. No one else can give life except God, if any prophets were able to do so, we must remember that they did it through their Creator alone. They themselves could not delay or extend their own lives by a minute without the will and work of God.
Miracles were to show to the people that the prophets were from God. We see in the Scriptures that God did show many miracles through many prophets, but those who were to reject God and His messengers still made fun of them and called them magicians and did not believe them. Jesus' example is clear, you think if those who disbelieved were shown a miracle they will believe? That did not happen with him neither, those who were bound to hell did not believe in him to be from God, they pursued him till they were about to kill him, and according to Islamic teaching, God saved his sevent from humiliation, honored him by raising him up to Himself, yet another, even this miracle for the disbelievers was not enough.
So, If you are asking, if prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did miracles like Jesus (pbuh) is said to have done. My simple answer will be no (and any one, please correct me if I am wrong) same way what miracles Moses may have done would probably be different than those done by David (pbuh).
I agree with those who say, the Quran is a miracle God did through prophet Mohammed (pbuh), something we can say Jesus did not have! as prophet Mohammed was an illiterate man, while Jesus, according to the Bible was well versed in Jewish Law and scripture.
Like I said, it is the purpose for which God sent messengers most important and of interest than what miracles they brought with them or were given.
I see your statement "for US as Christians Jesus was God" and "Jesus was sent to the Earth by God in the way of his Son" as contradictory.
This contradiction is further reinforced by this statement of yours: "The Father (God) shows the Son (Jesus) everything He Himself does (miracles). The same way that any father in this world will teach his son everything he knows."
Since, we all agree that God is All Knowing, All Aware, does God need learning about things, the Creator of All, need to be taught? like I teach my daughters everything I know (I only have daughters, Alhumdolillah), It seems odd and it is wrong to think. God is not taught, nor He needs to know, He is self sufficiant, All Knowledgeable.
I must say, your undestanding of Who God really is, needs some attention sister.
Also, I don't think you will disagree with me that God who is One, does not have two wills, the All Knower Must have One Will. This quote from the Bible makes a point, and I hope you are able to see it:
"Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." You say, "he (Jesus) is God for us, and Muslim take him as a prophet" I believe I have quoted this before, but here it is again: "...But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor."
And this quote is from NT Matthew 13:57
Al least two visible points here: First, Jesus is declaring his prophethood. Second he is acknowledging being dishonored.
Have we grown in our understanding yet that there is none who can reach God in order to dishonor Him.
May God Almighty guide those who seek His guidance, in truth for their own good, Ameen.
Hasan
Edited by honeto - 16 September 2009 at 1:11pm |
||
|
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
||
|
||
|
Pati
Senior Member
Female Joined: 10 April 2009 Location: Spain Status: Offline Points: 304 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 16 September 2009 at 2:15pm |
|
|
Salams Hasan,
For us, Jesus during His stay on Earth was God's Son (Special Creation), but after His Death, He became part of God, coming back to His origins. I don't find any contradiction there. We don't say Jesus was God, even pretending to be during the time He was on Earth. That's not truth. But the truth which came from His miracles was the Holly presence He was always representing. Maybe my way to explain it was not the right one, but I hope this time the words are fitting what I want to say. Regarding the staying of Jesus on Earth, well, for us as Catholics, He came to save the Humanity from any sin. Through Him, God gave us a chance to believe on Him, to stop fighting and follow His Holly Word... Just an example: Jesus did never fight (just in the Synagogue, when it was full of usurers). The people who believed His words, followed him without asking for anything. For us, they (Jews and Romans) killed Him because they were afraid from the Word of God, from His Message. They were afraid from someone who was making miracles, convincing people just talking to them, making only good things for everyone, not insulting, not fighting... in that time, it was not good to be this way, and that's why Jesus became the objective to kill. Jesus was expressing a Message of peace, understanding between different people, against wars and kills, and every bad feeling a human being may have. If you want to control a population, they should have every kind of bad feelings to other people, you have to start looking for someone to blame for everything... and suddenly, Jesus appeared: with knowledge of God's Word, from childhood, impeccable behaviour, accepting everyone who was coming to Him (for instance, Maria Madgalena, a prostitute who became one of his most faithful followers)... Jews and Romans were afraid from the goodness, and from losing control on their land. Just that. But we are not used to learn from mistakes. And I am sure that if God would give us another chance, the humanity would answer the same. Regards. Patricia |
||
|
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
||
|
||
|
honeto
Senior Member
Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 September 2009 at 3:30pm |
|
|
Hola Pati,
let me ask you a question: In Catholicism who is refered to as " Madre de Dios" ??
Take care,
Hasan
|
||
|
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
|
||
|
||
|
salahuddeen2009
Newbie
Male Joined: 01 September 2009 Location: Saudi Arabia Status: Offline Points: 32 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 September 2009 at 5:42pm |
|
|
salam Patti
you said(For us, Jesus during His stay on Earth was God's Son (Special Creation), but after His Death, He became part of God, coming back to His origins. I don't find any contradiction there.)
Do doyou mean that God was Incomplete!!till jesus Died!!?
|
||
|
||
|
Pati
Senior Member
Female Joined: 10 April 2009 Location: Spain Status: Offline Points: 304 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 September 2009 at 4:07pm |
|
Hola Hasan, Yes, it is. Maria, Madre de Dios. And we refer to the Church as the "Santa Madre Iglesia" too (Saint Mother Church). Because for us, Maria was the mother of God, the mother of Jesus who was part of God and God as the same time (not engendered by God, just created).
Do you mean God has a shape? Do you mean God is finite? Do you mean God is something material? I don't think so, sorry. God is complete, never uncomplete. God is perfection, never makes any mistake. God is good, nothing bad comes from Him. Salams, |
||
|
No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions. |
||
|
||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1234> |
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
honeto wrote: