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The Great Jihad ? |
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myahya 
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Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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 Posted: 07 October 2008 at 6:09am |
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Ron:
Here is wisdom. If you ever hear a voice speaking to you, claiming to be God and urging you to kill an innocent person, say: "You are not God, you are Satan. You are a liar and I will not obey you." Abraham knew from where it was coming, for 100%. How? I do
not know. God knows how to make His prophet be sure about His message. A
prophet can not guide people if he can not distinguish between a God�s message
and a Satan�s message. Therefore, this must necessarily be one of the
characteristics of a prophet. |
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Ron Webb
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Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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Posted: 07 October 2008 at 4:34pm |
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Ad hominem attacks are unworthy of you, minuteman.
That's a circular argument. (Fallacies are certainly getting a workout today!) You have to assume that God was somehow involved in order to say that He "made His prophet sure". Anyway, the bottom line is that it was an evil command. Either it did not come from God, or God is evil. And either way, it ought not to be obeyed. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Mansoor_ali
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Posted: 07 October 2008 at 7:51pm |
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Your understanding of this event is poor.Let me quote verses from Quran and also its commentary. (37:102) and when he was old enough to go about and work with him, (one day) Abraham said to him: �My son, I see in my dream that I am slaughtering you. *58 So consider (and tell me) what you think.� He said: �Do as you are bidden. *60 You will find me, if Allah so wills, among the steadfast.�Commentary by Maulana Maududi *58 One should note that the Prophet Abraham had dreamt that he was sacrificing his son and not that he had sacrificed him. Although at that time he understood the dream to mean that he should sacrifice his son and on that very basis, he became ready to sacrifice him, with a cool mind, yet the fine point that Allah had in view in making him see the dream has been explained by Himself in verse 105 below.*60 The words clearly tell that the son had not taken the dream of his Prophet father to be a mere dream but a Command from Allah. Had it not been a Command actually, it was necessary that Allah should have explicitly or implicitly stated that the son of Abraham had mistaken it for a command. But the whole context is without any such allusion. On this very basis, there is the Islamic belief that the dream of the Prophets is never a mere dream it is also a kind of Revelation. Obviously, if a thing, which could become such a fundamental principle in the Divine Shari'ah, had not been based on reality, but had been a mere misunderstanding, it was not possible that Allah should not have refuted it. It is impossible for the one who believes the Qur'an to be Allah's Word, to accept That such an error and omission could emanate from Allah also. (37:103) When both surrendered (to Allah�s command) and Abraham flung the son down on his forehead, (37:104) We cried out: �O Abraham, (37:105) you have indeed fulfilled your dream. *63 Thus do We reward the good-doers.� *64 *63 That is, "We did not make you see in the dream that you had actually slaughtered your son and he had died, but that you were slaughtering him. That Vision you have fulfilled. Now, it is not Our will w take the life of your child: the actual object of the vision has been fulfilled by your submission and preparation to sacrifice him for Our sake."*64 That is, "We do not subject the people who adopt the righteous way to trials in order to involve them in trouble and distress and affliction just for the sake of it, but these trials are meant to bring out their excellencies and to exalt them to high ranks, and then We deliver them also safe and sound from the dilemma in which We place them for the sake of the trial. Thus, your willingness and preparation to sacrifice yow son is enough to entitle you to be exalted to the rank that could be attained only by the one who would actually have slaughtered his son for Our approval and pleasure. Thus, We have saved the life of yow child as well as exalted you to this high rank. "(Source)
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Sign*Reader
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Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Posted: 07 October 2008 at 11:33pm |
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Ron: The part you are debating is way late on the time line of Abraham's life when he had no doubt's left! His dad did for living was Idol manufacturing for the people! He abhorred that was a wrangler and seeker from the get go for something that was the truly the reality. His faith was on ascendancy once God showed him the signs of his acceptance! God had saved him the punishment for breaking of the idols converting the pit of fire into a little garden! And that relationship gets transformed into a relationship of a lover and beloved! Then a scenario of some test from the beloved come into play for what ever reason! Any lover knows what are those states! If you have not so far in your life I can say you just can't know that state no matter how much I or any one for that matter try to explain it to you! It is a universal fact of life if the beloved alludes to anything the man will end up fulfilling it! Just for example the King of England let the British Empire go for his American beloved and that is a very recent case! Now as you said " ought not obey" and that is not unusual at all cuz that exactly what the Satan was telling Abraham when He was talking and walking with Ishmael in the valley of Jumarat a Makkah suburb and Satan kept whispering and then Abraham picked up some stones and kept hurled thinking he wanted the whisperer get lost! And that act is part of the Pilgrimage for the believers to emulate, that is the final pillar of faith the Muslim do it once in the life time particularly when they have seen ebb and flow of lives as Abraham / Ishmael had done and then were put to this test and came through with flying colors and Satan lost his hope! Some just talk the talk and Abraham talked the talk and walked the walk too! Any way if you don't think it ought to be so it is way too late to be saying so! Just imagine the size of this legacy, billions of believers have traveled that route and yours truly happens to be one of them luckily! Every king or president or revolutionary just wishes to have legacies and there is hardly any one can come close! Edited by Sign*Reader - 07 October 2008 at 11:46pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Sign*Reader
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Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Posted: 08 October 2008 at 12:15am |
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Otherwise well worded sermon! The mentioning Issac being thine only son a doggone a classic case of bias and bigotry! Just cuz Ishmael was son of a black woman; is that why colonialist written bible would like to him forfeit his right of the relationship to his father? It is a fact Issac was the second son even according to the narrative of the your bible! I just can't wait ; it is so ironic that the future king of the western world will be a black man and he being called the Messiah for the lost western world! Yes Jesus expelled the money changers ----now the descendants of the same money changers have taken the world hostage Temple or no Temple! And how both candidates are in abeyance to the Jewish state of Israel! Look what have they done to the world by robbing the banks and investment houses and poor old folks' life savings! What has changed? What good are sermons? Or may be you are too young and idealistic! Edited by Sign*Reader - 08 October 2008 at 12:21am |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 08 October 2008 at 2:22am |
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Sign reader - I'd be interested in what you had to say if you yourself were not such a real and hearty bigot. You can't help but put your two big feet in it every time. I couldn't care less if Isaac were a green alien and Ishmael were a polka dot orange. I didn't know about the whole Isaac/Ishmael thing till very recently. It's the story that is important. The lesson in it for each and every one of us. You were right about the lover and the Beloved I think. I don't think the insanity that is 'being in love' is quite the same thing though. If you want to help someone understand the real lesson of the story - it's not a good place to start by rabbiting on like this....
"Just coz Ishmael was son of a black woman."
Dear God, you alienate all your horrible 'white' audience straight away. Not the Islamic 'way of peace' I am sure.
I'd imagine that Isaac were of a darker complexion if he were born in that part of the world. So I don't see why you're making it a racial matter. Just as you missed the point of the story of Arwen and tried to imply she were some white trash slut. Get over yourself for God's sake. The world is a big place. We don't all think and feel like some of you in your part of the world.
If you have issues with people's colour or race, which you obviously do - you need to look at that as part of your spiritual 'evolution'. We can all complain about such things. I don't think it's necessary in the context of discussing religion and spirituality, and trying to help others come to a knowledge and understanding, and maybe acceptance of what you believe.
Think a little. I am the same, why I say this to you. I blurt it out fore I put my brain in gear ;-) LOL
Edited by Gulliver - 08 October 2008 at 2:43am |
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Gulliver
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Posted: 08 October 2008 at 3:19am |
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"Or may be you are too young and idealistic!"
Sign - you'd be very surprised. I've lived long enough and known the real and true crap of this life too. But I chose not to become so cynical, and YES, I know how hard that is - believe you me. Sometimes I have wondered that life were a stripping. Everything taken from you so you are left with nothing but bare faith. A faith that can only cry to God alone, and ask for deliverance for your self and every other soul in that darkness. And when we are in those places, again we can become hard and cynical and bitter - or we learn that we cannot judge any soul, cause when we do, we judge ourselves. It's a true expression I believe, "there but for the grace of God go I."
We all suffer in this life Signreader. Asking at times why in the hell things that happen, happen. We are driven to utter despair. But something gets us through. We can become hard and bitter and cynical - or we can respond to something else - I am not sure what, that allows us, despite the real and lasting darkness and pain, to grow - in compassion and love for the entire race - even the worst 'bs'tards' in the world - those who hurt us most.
I don't know how it happens but I do know it is possibe. You can walk in my shoes anytime you care to. Then tell me I am too young and idealistic ;-) Young at heart is something else ;-) LOL
We need to rid of the 'idols' of bigotry and prejudice too. If you read the biblical stories - as I try to do when I have time, as well as Qu'ran. We can relate to these stories on the individual level - what happens to each character individually, as well as communally. Our own stories are part of the scriptural stories too. It's a story of 'redemption' at the individual and societal, global levels. Something we won't see in our life times. The longer I live the more I truly begin to believe this place is just a place of learning and the Qu'ran does not necessarily contradict that possibility. He is "lord of the WorldS". Someone once said that the lesson is lthe earning to truly love in every situation imaginable. I think there is much truth in this. The whole notion of a paltry few years in this world - even it were a billion years - and then eternity suffering in hell, or even heaven, just seems utterly absurd. Life is hard as you well know. We cannot change and heal the world. We drive ourselves insane to think we can do that. We can only change our self first, and God willing - help others, one by one, day by day - to see some light in this dark ol' world. That's all we are called to do. I learned that when I stopped being 'too young and idealistic" LOL ;-)
God bless We can all help each other learn Sign. None have all the answers - another thing we learn as we get older. Edited by Gulliver - 08 October 2008 at 3:45am |
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myahya
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Joined: 06 February 2008 Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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Posted: 08 October 2008 at 7:57am |
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Ron: Anyway, the bottom line is that it was an evil command.
Evil command from evil God?! God is pure of any
evilness. There is no point in argument if you imagine that the origin of worlds (God) is evil. What else would you expect from a created if the main creator
be evil?
Edited by myahya - 08 October 2008 at 8:08am |
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minuteman wrote: