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Gabriel: "Read" or "Recite?"

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Andalus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2006 at 9:40am
Originally posted by George George wrote:

Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

George,

To cut a long story short, let me make it very simple for you. Translating word for word has not gotten you any where so far.

Let me put this way first:

1.Gabriel appears to Muhammad like he appeared to so many before.

2. He must have greeted and introduced himself and then told him the purpose of his coming.

3. He did not bring along any book with him so the question of asking Muhammad to read from the book does not arise.

4. Muhammad, likewise, did not have a notebook, a feather nib and ink with him also, so the question of writing does not arise.

5. What could the word Iqra mean then?

6. Muhammad could not recite anything of his own or on his own.

The simple meaning is that Gabriel said, "Repeat after me what I say or just say the words that I recite."

An example of this can be found in the swearing in ceremony of a President or a Prime Minister, when the Supreme Court Judge recites the oath or reads out to the President or the PM and he/she repeats or recites or reads or follows or says what he/she is told.  

I can safely say that the President or the PM read the oath or recited the oath or repeated the oath after the Supreme Court Judge or Justice.

Hope you have understood this time. You cannot understand Semitic and Oriental languages well in and with the help of  English or Greek. Please remember that.

 

The story does not say that Gabriel introduced himself to Muhammad.  As the story goes Muhammad did not know who was speaking to him.  This is clearly spelled out in the Hadith.

 

"Muhammad (s) was terrified by the whole experience of the revelation and fled the cave of Mt. Hira [Qur'an 81:19-29]. When he reached his home, tired and frightened, he asked his wife: �cover me, cover me,� in a blanket. After his awe had somewhat abated, his wife Khadijah asked him about the reason of his great anxiety and fear. She then assured him by saying: "Allah (The One God) will not let you down because you are kind to relatives, you speak only the truth, you help the poor, the orphan and the needy, and you are an honest man. Khadijah then consulted with her cousin Waraqa who was an old, saintly man possessing knowledge of previous revelations and scriptures. Waraqa confirmed to her that the visitor was none other than the Angel Gabriel who had come to Moses. He then added that Muhammad is the expected Prophet. Khadijah accepted the revelation as truth and was the first person to accept Islam. She supported her hu sband in every hardship, most notably during the three-year �boycott� of the Prophet�s clan by the pagan Quraish. She died at the age of sixty-five in the month of Ramadan soon after the lifting of the boycott in 620 CE."

Source:  http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/muhammad.html

Notice that it was Waraqa who said that it was Gabriel and also notice that it was Waraqa who said that Muhammad was a prophet like Moses.

 

And what?

 

Originally posted by George George wrote:

Since about 75-80% of Muslims cannot read or understand the Arabic language then they are in the same boat that I am in.  Surely, you aren't suggesting that the Qur'an cannot properly be translated into other languages with the meaning of the Arabic words in tack, are you?

 

As a gentile Christian, you have been raised and taught that reading a scritpure in a language not of the original is as good as the orignial language. It was Christians who wanted to push for the King James version to be the offical bible in the English language. Given the context of a scripture, and the loss of meaning when translating any language into another langauge, especially two langauges that have nothing in common, it is a matter of limitation that prevents someone from tranlating a verse perfectly.

 

 

Originally posted by George George wrote:

 

One does not need to be able to read in order to repeat words after someone else.

If Muhammad was asked to read and he said he couldn't read, that is fine if the angel asked him to read some text, but according to you, he didn't have any text.  Using your logic then Muhammad should have said, "I do not know how to recite" and not "I do not know how to read."  In other words, Muhammad's response does not match what he was asked to do.

 

 

I notice you bring up similar issues commonly pushed with detractors such as Sam Shamoun, and common minor points engendered from events that can be twisted by reductionist type questioning such that the event has been dissected into the realm of ambiguity. Hack polemicists like Sam Shamoun and his friends then use this artifically induced realm of ambiguity to hurl conclusions that simply do not follow from their questions. I am not accusing you of copying him, I am just pointing out the seeming similiarity. If you are asking questions becuase you have honestly studied the material, then my hat is off to you.

 

Case for Read and the Prophet is able to scribble charcters for the purpose of business and reading limited to basic recognition of this limited writing ability: Gd is not dependent upon a man writing words on a piece paper in order for the man to read the material Gd is wanting read. Being able to scribble a few characters that make up a name, initals, or a mark of representation does not allow him to put forth the work one finds in the Quran, no more than a man who can balance his check book could solve Fermat's last theorem.

Case for Read and the Prophet was unable to write or read anything: Recognizing symbols or characters and converting them to meaning has a first cause from Gd as everything esle does. Gd is not dependent upon the education of a man for him to be able to read something the He requests.

Case for recite and the Prophet could understand crude charcters and limited writings: Oral societies communicate with language and transmit it through orally expresive means, the langugae carries a meaning without it having been written on paper. The Prophet would then have "recited" the information given to him without having to know how to read and still have understanding of the meaning of what he was reciting. Being uneducated does not mean being incapable of communicating in one's native tongue.

 

Reciting can mean both "proper reading of the Quran according to the rules of tajwid and understanding what you recite", or "proper reading of the Quran in terms of tajwid and having not idea of what is begin recited", or "proper reading of the Quran according to the rules of tajwid and having some understanding of what is being recited".  

 

 

Originally posted by George George wrote:

 

Beyond all of this I would think that Muhammad would have know how to read and write because of the business he was in.  His wife had a business and Muhammad was a part of it.  He would have had to know some basics in reading and writing.

 

Refer to the Fermat analogy.

 

 

 

Originally posted by George George wrote:

The article I cited above says:

"Under the guardianship of Abu Talib, Muhammad (s) began to earn a living as a businessman and a trader. At the age of twelve, he accompanied Abu Talib with a merchant caravan as far as Bostra in Syria. Muhammad was popularly known as �al-Ameen� for his unimpeachable character by the Makkans and visitors alike. The title Al-Ameen means the Honest, the Reliable and the Trustworthy, and it signified the highest standard of moral and public life.

Upon hearing of Muhammad�s impressive credentials, Khadijah, a rich merchant widow, asked Muhammad (s) to take some merchandise for trade to Syria."

Also I would think that Khadijah would have had to know how to read and write and would have taught her husband the basics. 

I don't understand this story.  It doesn't make sense to me. 

Refer to the Fermat analogy. Keep in mind that there are various degrees of illiteracy, and you are trying to force the common detractors interpretation based upon assumption while ignoring the other possibilities. 

Peace

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2006 at 9:45am
Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

of course muhammad could read and write.

see sahih bukhari vol7book62no.88 - he wrote the marriage contract with aisha.  also - vol1book3no.114 - "i shall write for you a statement".  also vol5book59no.717 - "come near, i will write for you something after which you will not go astray" ------also vol4book53no.393 - he wants a bone of scapula to write on

You are trying to force an interpretation of "illiteracy" in terms of the degree of illiteracy of the Prophet (saw) and you are trying to force an assumption that his degree of illiteracy was static.

I am sure you can balance your check book, but that does not mean you are capable of solving Fermat's last theorem. If someone solved it and was "math illiterate", this seemingly "miraculous"  feat would not change from being almost "miraculous" if the man could balance his check book. The claim would change if we find that the man had a PHD in mthematics and was a student of a great mathematician.

Peace



Edited by Andalus
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2006 at 10:35am

Assalamu Alaikum:

I have met women from Afghanistan who were illiterate, yet when asked they can write their signature, or mark, which is necessary for a marriage contract.

How many times have you heard, "make your mark here"?

In the instances of the Hadith you site, the Prophet(PBUH) was sending letters to the leaders of neighboring countries, getting married, etc... all that would have been sufficient would have been His mark, or signature.  The Hadiths do not state that the Prophet(PBUH) wrote a manuscript or novel.

Above all, the Hadith are the actions or statements of the Prophet(PBUH) written by men. The Hadith are not the Word of God: The Quran. If there is a discrepency between a Hadith and what is stated in the Quran, the Quran will take precedence. Always.



Edited by Mishmish
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2006 at 9:08pm

George,

Have you answered my following question or not yet? I am waiting.

"Question time now:

A very important question and answer it very carefully, please: Did Jesus know how to write?"  

Please let me know as soon as possible.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2006 at 7:56am
Originally posted by bmzsp bmzsp wrote:

A very important question and answer it very carefully, please: Did Jesus know how to write?"  

Please let me know as soon as possible.

We know that Jesus wrote in the dirt during the stoning incident.  We know that Jesus could read because he read the Scriptures out loud from the scrolls.

We also know that Jesus helped Joseph in the family business, so I would say that there is a good chance that Jesus could write.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2006 at 7:57am
I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  What difference does it make whether Muhammad could read or write or not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2006 at 8:11am

George,

Thanks for saying: "We know that Jesus wrote in the dirt during the stoning incident.  We know that Jesus could read because he read the Scriptures out loud from the scrolls.

We also know that Jesus helped Joseph in the family business, so I would say that there is a good chance that Jesus could write."

Has anyone got a small little piece or even an inch-square papyrus of Jesus' own wriitng? Were there any scribes with Jesus when he was delivering sermons and speeches?

I am really shocked that none of his loving disciples or followers kept a piece of any writing done by him. I thought James might have kept some writings of his dear brother.

Thanks

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2006 at 8:16am
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Posted: 04 May 2006 at 10:49am | IP Logged Report Post Quote George

Did Gabriel ask the Prophet of Islam to read or recite when Gabriel first encountered Muhammad in the cave?

It's just not your day, George!

You wrote: "I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  What difference does it make whether Muhammad could read or write or not?"

You started the thread, George!

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