faith

When people hear objections they usually think that they are being accused of thinking wrong. This is not my intention. A try approaching it differently as I can�t agree with something that doesn�t stand close scrutiny and I can�t agree with something only to make other people comfortable. In fact I don�t argue with you here, I argue with myself. This is the way I approach it � I ask the question, then I receive the explanation. I can�t agree with explanation unless I see the grounds, the justification, or substantiation for it. I give you my reasons for not agreeing in order to hear counter-arguments, not in order to accuse you or force you into thinking the way I do. In other words � prove that my arguments are wrong, that it just fine.

Elijah: you summed things up very well, you want to "argue" either with us or yourself.  you want someone to "prove" you wrong- or a position wrong. I havbe no interest in debating or arguing point for point on any subject. Some people like that. You asked for why people have "faith." I may have different feelings or reasonings than others on this board.

After my experiences I think there are many mysteries and explanations that we do not not have the answers to. Some of us think a lot deeper than other people in  terms of reflecting upon our very existence and purpose in our lives. 

HAYFA:

Edited by elijah-boy - 22 June 2010 at 4:47pm

USMANI:

Elijah,
Lemme begin by apologizing for the late reply, I had a bundle load of final exams jammed together, hence couldn't at all find myself
time these past couple of days. Sincere aplogies, I've got rid of them now so the replies will significantly speed up, assurative x)

elijah-boy wrote: --- Sure. As I said � it was pretty silly argument from the atheist perspective. --- Agree. And yes, I mistook your argument. --- Well, it�s not only about me. Even though I related to my personal experience I believe that it is applicable to pretty big number of people. I would also mention that not everybody who says �Oh god!� implies the connection. So I guess we�ll leave it the way it is � we differ in opinions regarding that one and both have reasons to address it the way we do.

Sure, as I said, I do understand your take on this when I look at it from your point of view, which is not convincing enough, so lets write this one off and move on.

elijah-boy wrote: --- This one seriously puzzled me. The answer is I don�t know. There are a number of explanations here: 1. There is a �cyclic� theory of Big Bangs. It basically says that this was not a single Big Bang event, but rather a repetition. Theory states that every 13-20 billion of years the universe expands and collapses. 2.  Another theory states that there are more than one universe that is formed and there is more Big Bangs then one transpiring. 3. Lee Smolin formulated another theory. This theory suggests that the trigger for universe formation is not the Big Bang, but rather processes formed on black holes. 4. There is a theory that states that universe was formed once and for all, that singularity of this event is unique and that behind that stands intelligent creator � god. In my eyes � all those theories seem pretty equal. I have no reasons at this point to choose over the other. The scientist would further elaborate: Every theory can be evaluated from the probability perspective. The more probable theory would be the one that can be backed up with data. In that sense scientist would choose the first three over the the #4.

Ahaan. Yah, I've known of a couple of these theories. The Lee Smolin one was new to me. Basically, you can simply divide them into two ; #1, #2, #3 and #4. According to #1, #2 and #3, the universe did come into perfect existence by mere chance afterall, as it doesn't explain any other alternative, which to me honestly, is bull. Can those three explain how all the chances created a universe with this astonishing a design, and above all how living things came into existence from non-living things, or precisely nothingness. How the first life on earth came into existence. How the first human came to be, since as far as I know, humans are born from another human. Lets hear it then x)

"Every theory can be evaluated from the probability perspective"
^Sincerely agreed. Probably the only reasonable solution which could logically help. Now lets apply it to the first three theories. What's the probability that big bang happened on its own, or the conditions which led to it came to be on their own? What's the probability that it resulted in a perfectly evolved universe? To me it kind of sounds like saying "hey, a bomb went off in my backyard, and guess what, a brand new hi fi mercedes benz evolved in a few years." In most cases in fact, the question becomes 'how'd that be' instead of 'what probability if either', and the answer one way or the other turn into a 'by chance.' There was a scientist and an atheist himself whose name I fail to recall, it was Frank something, who estimated that the probability the universe came into existence by anything but God would be 10 raised to the power 160. And we pretty much all know that mathematically 10 raised to the power 50 is taken as a straight zero.
Ever heard of Keith Moore? Was the top guy in the world with regards to embryology a few years back, once looked into embryology being described in the Quran, and couldn't believe his eyes. Converted to Islam and this I'm not making up, unfortunately many of his biographies, namely Wikipedia won't mention this fact, which I pretty much despise, guess they themselves like to be one sided and blame other societies of not supporting 'freedom of speech' or whatever. Though if you look much deep into him on the net you'll most probably find that what I said actually did happen.

Moving on to the last theory, its either a yes or no. 50% probability? Pretty much massively beats the other three probability wise. Allah says he's made signs clear enough in the Quran. Therefore another route we could go by is that. As I somewhat implied earlier, the only one who could, note the key word here, PERFECTLY describe the universe's and human life's systems is a creator. Use probability in this, what's the chance that every fact was a guess? Zero. Further to add, take the instance of Bible, there are tonnes of contradictions which are pointed out to date, while since the 1400 years of Quran, none have come up, only ridiculous attempts of people trying to quote stuff out of context. For a book unchanged for all this while, it does strike a person a lot.

I guess we'd best move on once you actually see the facts and stuff I'm talking about. Here's a site :

http://miraclesofthequran.com/index2.php
^Contains a list of many of them, not the best of descriptions in some cases, but the fact that you get to have them listed, you could further check the less convincing ones out elsewhere, you'll know the basic thing from the site afterall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3vglFjsDgw&feature=related
^I'd also recommen you watch this, its the first part of this scholar's lecture, there are 13 more parts which I'm sure you know you'd find in the related videos section. Watch through the part he talks about our topic and do tell me what you think.

Aye and, whatever source I've given you, both have the actual mention of the verse that's being talked about, in every single case, and nothing's faked. Even if you yourself seem to want to know the verse for one of these things where its not mentioned, do tell me and I'll get it for ya.

Once again, my bad for the late reply. I've linked you to two sources which I'd referred to for myself before, I'll try to find further of them with even better explanations and keep updating my post, so stay tuned 




Edited by xx__Ace__xx - 04 July 2010 at 11:28am