Shia And Sunni

okay..since i dont have a lot of time in the next few days..i will be replying this..i will try to keep my reples shoort.....my answers are given in green below:

Sign*Reader wrote: The title should be Shia and Muslims due to the following reasons:Every child born is� born on fitrah i.e., Muslim and it the parent that gives him his� religion or the absence of it.... it is sad that u see religion as a form of inheiritence...atleast this is not true from where i see it... Three progenitors of the three main line religions!We say they were supposed to be Muslims but Judeo /Christen got the currency! Why cuz people put bunch of nonsense into it based on their egos and ignorance or the influence of sect originators! Look at the verities of Judaism! Judaism it was supposed to be Islam...OK that is asking too much...But then� Orthodox has God in it; Conservative may be; but what is this the Reformed wow the God is history so is judgment day and it is good enough to be the Jews... meaning the Hebrews... meaning children of Abraham...And they want all the goodies here and now so go after the world .Do you see the picture? Musa(a) was born and let go into the river/removal of the father figure from the scene who could be detrimental to his mental growth being in bondage you know that! What we gonna do about Nazarenes; or so called Christians after a few centuries they took a completely a new tack they merged the "Passion of Christ " that blood and gore ....and merged with the Roman trinitarianism, RC and Lutheranism, Baptist ism and Mormonism and hundreds other ism all based on crucifixion that was an allusion made to look that actually didn't happen!� again it is odd that you see the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) as some people who made up whatever they liked...well for a fact i can say and prove this about u...being in the majority does not make you normal or orignal...because what matters in the sight of Allah (s.w.t) is the truth and not the majority... Jesus(a) was conceived by the word being delivered to Murrium and born without a father cuz there were no father figure fit for the boy Jesus amongst the mammon worshiping Jews of his time and also a birth without father was to be shock to the smart aleci Jews! Muhammad(s)'s was conceived and his father was taken before his birth and his nurturing escaped the father's pagan influence then he got the revelation at age he was given the Quran and he got the confirmation that he was all along a Muslim but now had an added responsibility of telling others to revert to the nature of being a Muslim in totality than anything else. All those who accepted his call reverted back to being a Muslim cuz they( adult friend Abu Bakr(r); Khatija(r) knew his life style /SUNNAH and believed his Kalimah" There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger! Of course rest in the house hold Zayd and young Ali(r)� Now the Jews say they want the preference over the world and want Palestine to themselves� cuz they are related in blood with Abraham(a).The Christians claim redemption cuz Jesus(a) got crucified and the Shiane Ali claim both their claim being related and cuz Hussain(r) got killed at Karbala and that land became a holy land that shiiTs carry even to Kabbah for their prayers! Just Imagine the dirt of Karbala taking preference than Haram Sharifs! This is another Tohmat...the Land of Karbala has its own virue, but comparing it to the Land of Makkah is just ubsurd....The land of Makkah where the Prophet (s.a.w) lived, where Imam Ali (a.s) was born and the biggest of all, the Holy Kaabah is place there cant take prefference above any land...infact it is the goveremnt of saudi which has made hajj trips a problem for us(specially) and the rest of the world by making it expencive widout any reason...its just a time like the jaahils of makkah before the Prophet (s.a.w) used the month of zill hijjah to gain money..thats it... �Who established these innovations for them when the laws of Islam were already set? Are you talking about mourning of Imam Hussain (a.s)?? this is surly not an innovation and the Prophet (s.a.w) has been reported to cry when he heard how his (s.a.w) grandson (a.s) would be killed....okay..even if i imagine that this is an innovation, where do u think the sentence you say before fajar (assalatu khairum minan nawm) came?? was this said during the time of the Prophet (s.a.w)??? i will be waiting for ure answer!! Is this Islam of the Prophet? if protesting against evil not part islam of Prophet (s.a.w) then i would request u to read about islam again...and one of the biggest aim which is achieved by comomorating the death of Imam Hussain (a.s) is that it is an easier medium for scholars to teach the ummah as a major part of the lectures are given to it...and second is unity and another is the feeling to die in the cause of Islam....it is due to all these reasons the anti-shia in iraq/pakistan bomb our holy sites.....they surly know the dangers of letting us continue this...if there was nothing good achieved, y do u thing they like bombing our holy sites??...if they thing we r wronged, then leave us aside...y create a fuss... So where did this Shii thing came from? i can ask you the same question...where did the ahluss sunnah wal jamaat come from....we are all muslims....so wats the issue....its just that after the Prophet (s.a.w) died, people who followed abu bakr as a caliph were called sunnis and people who remained with the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) were called shias of Imam Ali (a.s) (followers of Imam Ali (a.s))...actually the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) are the people who obeyed the words of Prophet (s.a.w) when he said: "I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur'an and my Ahlul'bayt". They include people like H. Bilal (a.s), H. Ammar e Yassir (a.s), H Abu Zarr e Ghiffari (a.s), H Malik e Ashtar (a.s) and so on.... Where did this addition to Kalima Ali waliullah come from? i can ask u da same question: Can you locate the Kalima Tayyiba recited by Sunni 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger' from the Holy Qur'an. By this we don't mean joining up verses we are asking you to show us this Kalima as a single complete sentence from the Qur'an. another question i would like to ask is : Can you show us any single Hadeeth wherein Rasulullah (s) said that this Kalima was fixed and that no one was allowed to make any additions to it? infact we also see here that changes were lawfully made to the duas of the Prophet (s.a.w) since there is no law which objects it: We read in Saheeh Muslim Book of Pilgrimage 007 Hadeeth Numbers 2667 and 2668 as follows: 'Abdullah b. 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon the state of Ihram near the mosque at Dhu'l-Hulaifa as his camel stood by it and he said: Here I am at Thy service, O Lord; here I am at Thy service: here I am at Thy service. There is no associate with Thee. Here I am at Thy service. All praise and grace is due to Thee and the sovereignty (too). There is no associate with Thee. They (the people) said that 'Abdullah b. 'Umar said that that was the Talbiya of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). Nafi' said: 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) made this addition to it: Here I am at Thy service; here I am at Thy service; ready to obey Thee. The Good is in Thy Hand. Here I am at Thy service. Unto Thee is the petition and deed (is also for Thee). Did Ali(r) ask this to be coined? if u do further research on this, you would come to know that this was even said in front of Imam Ali (a.s) and he did not refuse it.. for details please read "Shawahid un Nubuwwa, by Abdul Rehman Jami, Page 286 & 287" I personally have no problem with that but if we consider him waliullah why wasn't he forewarned by Allah about the attack of the assassin? everything happens to according to will of Allah (s.w.t), then y doesnt Allah (s.w.t) make everybody muslims so that there is no evil???...well well...some of the questions u hav posted are absurd...If Allah (s.w.t) would have wished to save Imam Ali (a.s) from the attack he would have...but He (s.w.t) willed Martydom for Imam Ali (a.s)...one of the highest position...and surly there are reports that suggest that Imam ALi (a.s) wished he would be a martyr and give his life for Allah (s.w.t)... As we all know Prophet(s) was warned about his assassination plot and he made plans to migrate with his bud Abu Bakr(r) When he accepted to be the Caliph did people read the revised Kalima? i think this is another irrelevent question....it has already been adressed above...over here no one is denying the impotance of kalime...but due to lack of time..i dont have enuf time to explain it to u....if u ponder over the points i hav given above..u will understand what i am trying to say... What is difference of the Passion flagellation between Shiias & RCatholics! what is the difference between those rock concerts and some sunnis dancing to naats in mosques (i am sorry if i have offended anybody...there were reasons y i wanted to avoid answering him...or the way he wrote his question which u can see now)....okay i will make it more polite...what is the difference between reading the quran while the jews and the christians read and follow their holy book in the same way....WILL U STOP READING THE QURAN FROM TOMORROW!!!!! if some act resembles any other religion shud we stop doing it???...charity is an act done by jews and christians as well...will u stop doing that from tomorrow and say that its an act done be non-muslims???? it is better if u dont analyse what goes on in muharram because i am sure u have never attended our musques and heard any lectures...therefore it wouldnt be good to judge something from far away... Isn't this similar to what the RCs in third world do and don't forget the Passion of the Christ stuff still raging on RCs minds while at the same time that blood of Christ has commuted their sins slate clean! Does that make any sense? already answered above... Hussan(r) abdicated but Hussain(r) decided to throw the gauntlet to the state forces....Was he in a different or stronger position than his elder brother? thats the difference between you and me....when rasulullah (s.w.t) made peace with the kuffar of makkah, was he weak then?? did u forget badr...Islam is a religion of peace....and if u dont know, war was thrown at Imam Hussain (a.s)...and it was not his choice....an evidence of this is that he 72 followers...he(a.s) was forced to fight a war...and Imam Hassan (a.s) even though could have fought, but since he had a choice, like rasulullah(s.a.w) he made peace... Then you go further down the road and followers of Imam Ismael split from the mainline after Jafar as Sadiq refused to delegate Imamat ...How do you explain that if Jafar thought his first born was no good why did they let them Ismaelis getaway and start their own brand ? Imamat is not inheiritence....nor a status to be set in a family...Its just that Allah (s.w.t) wantedet like that...but sadly some people (ismaailees) thot otherwise and had a belief that Imamat was given on inheiritence...thus this split came up.... Isn't obvious these sectarian Twelvers or Seveners or any of the free lancers bunch different self styled saint branching were based on the Tribal/political followings than the true spirit of Islam as preached by the Prophet(s)? nope...infact the ahluss sunnah had all the political support since they were the on the rulers seat and supported the ismaelees to thrive against the twelvers...i would point out ure type of language which i have ignored... i would also like to add that politics is a base of ure system of khilafat...not ours....so please look into ure corner b4 pointing out.. You have Alavites ruling over Syria cuz the west would not allow a Muslim majority take the reigns of power! so are u telling me that the majority of muslim states are ruled by non-muslims..which world do u live in...no offence, but the west has always preffered a sunni goverment over a shii one...and dats evident in history.. And you know these Ismaeils have� a weird ism and their religion is business based! Almost like the Jews!I hope some one can come up with the answers! whatever the ismaeelees do is not our responsibility...they are a different sect...and for i believe that they are wronged...but it is wrong to judge what their religion is based on... I am sorry I posed too many of them.............

i hope i have satisfactorily answered every single question of ures...if any of u want a further discussion on this i wud prefer having a discussion in a seperate thread where we can discuss each topic in detail...many topics in one thread is just going to make things complicated..and hard for each other to understand

regards
Asda

Edited by asda - 19 January 2009 at 12:23pm

asda wrote: it is sad that u see religion as a form of inheiritence...atleast this is not true from where i see it...

WHat do you call these twelvers and Seveners, How did they get the immamats? Dad to son ? or some others way!
Man YOU lost It right here!

asda wrote: again it is odd that you see the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) as some people who made up whatever they liked...well for a fact i can say and prove this about u...being in the majority does not make you normal or orignal...because what matters in the sight of Allah (s.w.t) is the truth and not the majority...

I never said that majority is normal particularly when they are in bondage!
You have seen it in Gaza.......

asda wrote: This is another Tohmat...the Land of Karbala has its own virue, but comparing it to the Land of Makkah is just ubsurd....The land of Makkah where the Prophet (s.a.w) lived, where Imam Ali (a.s) was born and the biggest of all, the Holy Kaabah is place there cant take prefference above any land...infact it is the goveremnt of saudi which has made hajj trips a problem for us(specially) and the rest of the world by making it expencive widout any reason...its just a time like the jaahils of makkah before the Prophet (s.a.w) used the month of zill hijjah to gain money..thats it...

I am not advocating for Saudis and  never will.......
You need to visit Harm shareef and see it yourself what these Iranians do with that dirt disc to do Sajdah....they never went to hajj just thirty years ago and no one taught the etiquette of the Haram.. You talk about scholars!

asda wrote: Are you talking about mourning of Imam Hussain (a.s)?? this is surly not an innovation and the Prophet (s.a.w) has been reported to cry when he heard how his (s.a.w) grandson (a.s) would be killed....okay..even if i imagine that this is an innovation, where do u think the sentence you say before fajar (assalatu khairum minan nawm) came?? was this said during the time of the Prophet (s.a.w)??? i will be waiting for ure answer!!

This a make belief of you guys........

asda wrote: if protesting against evil not part islam of Prophet (s.a.w) then i would request u to read about islam again...and one of the biggest aim which is achieved by comomorating the death of Imam Hussain (a.s) is that it is an easier medium for scholars to teach the ummah as a major part of the lectures are given to it...and second is unity and another is the feeling to die in the cause of Islam....it is due to all these reasons the anti-shia in iraq/pakistan bomb our holy sites.....they surly know the dangers of letting us continue this...if there was nothing good achieved, y do u thing they like bombing our holy sites??...if they thing we r wronged, then leave us aside...y create a fuss...

Iraq and Pakistan are American occupied countries facilitated by the SHii and Ahmedi agents!

asda wrote: i can ask you the same question...where did the ahluss sunnah wal jamaat come from....we are all muslims....so wats the issue....its just that after the Prophet (s.a.w) died, people who followed abu bakr as a caliph were called sunnis and people who remained with the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) were called shias of Imam Ali (a.s) (followers of Imam Ali (a.s))...actually the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) are the people who obeyed the words of Prophet (s.a.w) when he said: "I am leaving you two weighty things, if you follow them you will never go astray, they are the Qur'an and my Ahlul'bayt". They include people like H. Bilal (a.s), H. Ammar e Yassir (a.s), H Abu Zarr e Ghiffari (a.s), H Malik e Ashtar (a.s) and so on.... Can you locate the Kalima Tayyiba recited by Sunni 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger' from the Holy Qur'an. By this we don't mean joining up verses we are asking you to show us this Kalima as a single complete sentence from the Qur'an.

If this was true why would Ali(r) become the Caliph elected by ahle Sunnah?
Don't be facetious like the Christians and Jooz,

Quran doesn't give the  detail of Salat either!

asda wrote: Can you show us any single Hadeeth wherein Rasulullah (s) said that this Kalima was fixed and that no one was allowed to make any additions to it?

Now you are sounding like the Ahmedees

asda wrote: infact we also see here that changes were lawfully made to the duas of the Prophet (s.a.w) since there is no law which objects it: We read in Saheeh Muslim Book of Pilgrimage 007 Hadeeth Numbers 2667 and 2668 as follows:

Non sequitur

asda wrote: 'Abdullah b. 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) entered upon the state of Ihram near the mosque at Dhu'l-Hulaifa as his camel stood by it and he said: Here I am at Thy service, O Lord; here I am at Thy service: here I am at Thy service. There is no associate with Thee. Here I am at Thy service. All praise and grace is due to Thee and the sovereignty (too). There is no associate with Thee. They (the people) said that 'Abdullah b. 'Umar said that that was the Talbiya of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). Nafi' said: 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with him) made this addition to it: Here I am at Thy service; here I am at Thy service; ready to obey Thee. The Good is in Thy Hand. Here I am at Thy service. Unto Thee is the petition and deed (is also for Thee).

Non sequitur  again

asda wrote: if u do further research on this, you would come to know that this was even said in front of Imam Ali (a.s) and he did not refuse it.. for details please read "Shawahid un Nubuwwa, by Abdul Rehman Jami, Page 286 & 287"

No one is buying this here!

asda wrote: everything happens to according to will of Allah (s.w.t), then y doesnt Allah (s.w.t) make everybody muslims so that there is no evil???...well well...some of the questions u hav posted are absurd...If Allah (s.w.t) would have wished to save Imam Ali (a.s) from the attack he would have...but He (s.w.t) willed Martydom for Imam Ali (a.s)...one of the highest position...and surly there are reports that suggest that Imam ALi (a.s) wished he would be a martyr and give his life for Allah (s.w.t)...

Thank you ...Exactly the point I am trying to make ...then accept the will of Allah swt
and quit making a hue and cry against his will............

asda wrote: what is the difference between those rock concerts and some sunnis dancing to naats in mosques (i am sorry if i have offended anybody...there were reasons y i wanted to avoid answering him...or the way he wrote his question which u can see now)....okay i will make it more polite...what is the difference between reading the quran while the jews and the christians read and follow their holy book in the same way....WILL U STOP READING THE QURAN FROM TOMORROW!!!!! if some act resembles any other religion shud we stop doing it???...charity is an act done by jews and christians as well...will u stop doing that from tomorrow and say that its an act done be non-muslims???? it is better if u dont analyse what goes on in muharram because i am sure u have never attended our musques and heard any lectures...therefore it wouldnt be good to judge something from far away...

I am not for those idiots dancing in mosques!
There is no comparison between them and us! I remember my dorm days ... room mate coming back from his bible thumping class and throw his bible on the floor along with with his shoes....some holy book! yes you don't want their way....a tax right off or plaque on the building......
I had shiia friends all my life either they were socialist /communists then later in life bunch of Takiyya practitioner schemers that cost me a bundle and almost my life! I was almost a Shiia and then What finally turned me off was the visits to the Majalas and listening to the Zakars coming from the old countries and listening to their drama ......then all those my shiia friends who didn't even pray would act as if to grab the Xtian like going along would get the redemption!
And the over all atmosphere would become just too much......

asda wrote: thats the difference between you and me....when rasulullah (s.w.t) made peace with the kuffar of makkah, was he weak then?? did u forget badr...Islam is a religion of peace....and if u dont know, war was thrown at Imam Hussain (a.s)...and it was not his choice....an evidence of this is that he 72 followers...he(a.s) was forced to fight a war...and Imam Hassan (a.s) even though could have fought, but since he had a choice, like rasulullah(s.a.w) he made peace..

.
This is just lame...

asda wrote: Imamat is not inheiritence....nor a status to be set in a family...Its just that Allah (s.w.t) wantedet like that...but sadly some people (ismaailees) thot otherwise and had a belief that Imamat was given on inheiritence...thus this split came up....

Bingo Now yu are changing the tune ...Just explain your lineage of Imams
Thanks for saying that......

asda wrote: nope...infact the ahluss sunnah had all the political support since they were the on the rulers seat and supported the ismaelees to thrive against the twelvers...i would point out ure type of language which i have ignored...

Quit lying that is all .....you are making up history to defend your rubbish.....you won't get away with this.........

asda wrote: i would also like to add that politics is a base of ure system of khilafat...not ours....so please look into ure corner b4 pointing out..

I think you are too young and sophomoric to know the facts!
Because the shiia were bent upon the heredity that gave tribal system to take hold the Caliphate went hereditary too the Ummayads Abbasids and Ottomans! where is the politics here! I don't live in a Muslim country but I don't think you have a system where you live  my internet friend....At least when the Sunni Caliphs ruled they ruled the realm with dignity and honor without scheming! The world couldn't refuse their direction and orders....And then they were back stabbed by the shiias!

asda wrote: so are u telling me that the majority of muslim states are ruled by non-muslims..which world do u live in...no offence, but the west has always preffered a sunni goverment over a shii one...and dats evident in history..

Right now there no independent Muslim state since the demise of Ottomans...why every time the west attacks it attcks the so called Sunni territory and not the Shiit WW! Ottomans end of the the Caliphate; India
the Muguls and Nawab Siraj udollah(who was Jaffar a Shiit a turn coat who help Clive)
At the destuction of Baghdad by Halaku and by now by Bush who were the traitors you want me tell you .........

Read this if you like.........
http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/iranian_mullahs/2008/06/10/103339.html
 


Edited by Sign*Reader - 20 January 2009 at 12:50am

just got few minuts to write this...will wrap it up quikly...

Chrysalis wrote: � 1. The Companions of the Prophet, especially his near and dear ones, would never reject his wishes. You would know that if you had read ahadith, but then ofcourse, you reject most of them anyway. � 2. Like you said yourself, the companions were taught by the best teacher of Quran, and learnt by his example, therefore they would know the importance of obeying his wishes, and be aware of the Quranic injunctions stressing on obeying the Prophet - thus would never ever disobey him. � 3. Again, nobody prevented the Prophet from doing anything. The Prophet couldnt write in the first place. I highly doubt your consipiracy theory, but I shall go back in the thread and see which hadith you base this claim of yours on (prevention of writing the 'will') since I have not followed it from the start,�because a lot of�talk here gets on my nerves. � �

please dont waste my time wen u chat wid me next...i thout u knew some facts but sadly u were ignorant of what is going on in this thread....ignorance for u is a blessing...but not for me bro...
the hadith i was referring to is :

Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/070.sbt.html

i hope this answers what i was talking about...please go back and read the whole discussion...

and all your hadith one the majority suggest sticking to the MAIN BODY OF MUSLIMS!!!!! and dat does not mean the majority at all.....it talks about the people of haq...not the majority.....and if u want to know about what allah (s.w.t) says about majority i will give u an example:
"This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
Quran 10:92
there are few more such examples i can give u...


and mr sign*reader
i pity ure ignorance..
u have cried about ure own victory when u hav avoided the thruth and hav not tried thinking over it...

and jazakallah the people who hav supported hamas in gaza are mainly the followers of Ahlel Bayt (a.s)...rest every otheer arabs were sleeping....and worst..even caused harm...just to save their seats.....they surly dont want hamas and hizbullah to get popular among the massess....i remember wen some arab coutries openly supported the zionist in the 2006 war which mashallah hizbullah won and all of these people had to face the shame...

we cause hovac in hajj??? look whose talking??? nad ya...we go to hajj/umrah more than we go to visit the graves of Aaimmah (a.s)....now dont try to teach us things....face the truth...


and then u avoided some questions....ohh man...after dat..i see u winning..lolzzzzz

Iraq and Pakistan are American occupied countries facilitated by the SHii and Ahmedi agents!

I am tired of exposing your lies...let the others see it for themselves..

Imam Ali (a.s) was "elected" by the ahlus sunnah???? dats news to me...are u telling me that muawiyah was not a sunni?? did u forget the jamaa'ah?? and if muawiyah was not a sunni what was he??


i know u r scared because of our "hue and cry"....its this wat kills anti shias....if u truly think we r wrong...tell ureself and ure anti shia fellows...leave us to our condition...lakum deenakum waleeya deen...

again...i feel pity for ure ignorance on the fact that u think the umayyads and the abbasids were not sunnis...

asda wrote: i know u r scared because of our "hue and cry"....its this wat kills anti shias....if u truly think we r wrong...tell ureself and ure anti shia fellows...leave us to our condition...lakum deenakum waleeya deen...

Assalamu Alaikum

Wont you consider that that might be very inapporiate, considering that ayah was aimed at the most ardent and staunch ones of the Kuffar and Mushrikeen?

When Did I, or anyone that disagrees with you in some areas, adopt a Way of Life contrary to Islam?