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Interracial relationships

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Mishmish View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2005 at 7:37pm

Assalamu Alaikum Brother:

I actually do know the meaning of the word endogamy, but I felt as though it was not the precise word that was needed as used within the reference of your post as the Muslim Ummah as a whole are endogamous regardless of their culture since they primarily choose to marry within the Islamic Community. I personally found the word exclusive to be a more correct definition of what you are trying to state.

In answer to: "You may assume all you want there but I've done plenty on my end physically here with my uiversity, what have you done?"  First, I haven't assumed anything and I have done nothing in regards to this issue because I don't see it to be the overwhelming problem that you see it to be.

There is prejudice everywhere there is ignorance. You can lead a person to enlightenment, but you cannot make them accept it. Even within the so-called multicultural societies prejudice is very apparent. Just look at what is happening in France right now with the North Africans and Muslims. Paris was once called the City of Enlightenment, and African Americans from the US went there to live in the early 20th century to escape oppression. Now the country has disenfranchised these young people to such an extent that they are running amok.

It appears this is something that you are somewhat obsessed with, for whatever reason, and no matter how many examples people bring forth of intercultural marriage, or what reasoning they give you for not wanting to marry a specific person or even not wanting their child to marry a specific person, you will see it as a matter of bias. I think no reason will be good enough for you. Maybe you should look within to see why this is such a huge issue for you personally.

What I know for a fact, is that everything good that happens to us and everything bad that happens to us is our naseeb. Whoever you marry, that is the person you were meant to marry, and you have to be patient until that time comes. If a woman is meant for you, then nothing will stop her from becoming your wife.

 

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2005 at 10:37pm

Well this is not an issue I'm solely "obsessed" with. I could talk about the Iraqi war and the U.S and west bashing but I tend to find those topics redundant. I find this (racism and marital relationships) interesting and important as I have said earlier, because they are issues that reflect our social infrastructure. Again sister if you are content with the state of affairs then by all means think in that way. Besides racism, the whole point here is that we need to change ourselves individually. as you mention about being leaders and such its hard being a leader when centuries of ignorance has plagued the  minds of people. Look how long people truly accepted Islam in Arabia! It took a short time but in the hearts of the converts in Arabia I'm sure the comfort wasn't there.

Point being here as you mentioned that ignorance is everywhere thus the spread of racism and prejudicial beliefs, but its that same ignorance that also occupies the minds of the individuals who believe it doesn't exist either. In a further response to your statement regarding the term endogamous is rather the appropriate term since it specifically implies the act of marriage. To be exclusive is broad and can reflect many things sister.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote candor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 1:27am
-- Previous Private Message --
Sent by : Israfil
Sent : 07 November 2005 at 9:17pm

I'm disappointed in your remark that racism is the least important worry in our community please reconsider this remark as ignorance and contemplate on the situation

When did I say racism is not a serious problem?

I said that there are problems which are even more serious besetting the Ummah. They have to be solved first. 

Any non-trivial attempt to resolve the issues relating to racism will result in creation  (at least, initially,) of greater divisions amongst Muslims which the external enemies of the Muslim can exploit to their own advantage. I will prefer status quo to be maintained until Muslims ward off external threats.

Besides, racism exist in the Ummah mainly in the form of sectarian discrimination (such as shia-sunni conflict etc.) wherein Muslims belonging to the same race are not at peace with each other  because they follow different "versions" of Islam. It is naive not to distinguish it from racial discrimination. In my country, bald men and dark women find it hard to find spouses, but that cannot be called "racial" discrimination because they can be found in any of the various races of the people living here.



Edited by candor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote candor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 1:54am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

You may bring up great examples of reverts and stuff who marry outside their culture but remember we live in the United States where pockets of immigrants have not choice but to acclimate to the American culture here. Some culture is bound to get mixed up with another culture.

I don't know the reason why other Muslims don't marry outside their culture in america. But, if I would (ever) to immigrate to U.S to work, I won't certainly like to assimilate in to the American culture and neither would I want my progeny to do that. I would expect to return back, along with my family, to my country when condns. back home get better. And I would want my progenies to marry Muslims from their own community, so that while returning home, they all return home together (and not get globally dispersed by settling in countries of their spouses).

Quote  But again this is less than a percent of theMuslims in the world. Now let me say if those who you know who have marriage others from the Middle East I wonder if they would have the same luck going to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Bangladesh in hopes of finding a husband or wife in a deely rooted culture and tell meif they find the same results....

By the way, my maternal great grandfather was an Arab who settled in India. I don't think, he would have had any problems marrying off his children to other Muslims in India. But same cannot be said about America, as I don't want/expect my progeny to permanently settle there.

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 November 2005 at 2:49pm

Candor when you say "there are more serious problems besettling the Ummah besides racism" that is equivalent of saying racism is not as important as other issues when that is the issue. Secondly, racism is not sectarism. Candor I'm sure sure of your scholastic background but Shias and Sunnis are not distinctive races as there are Arab Sunnis and Arabs Shiites so where you got Sectarian classes as a type of racism is amusing to me. Thirdly to assume that the Muslim community will "war off" racist belief itself is idealistic but its not plausible. That's like saying the ignorant will stop being ignorant unless the ignorant realizes he is ignorant. That is ridiculous! Those who exercise prejudice may not believe they are prejudice so how can you say they will solve the issue themselves if they are unaware?

Forthly on this matter when I discuss racism I don't mean the isolation of a Muslim versus a Non-Muslim (which you seem to show in your post) I mean within the muslim community i.e A Muslim Arab racist against A Muslim Pakistani e.t.c

This exist not only in the sectarian communities but also around the world because my main argument here was that there are some cultures who sustain their belief in ethnocentrism when they come to America some do and some don't. Regardless my understanding of Islamic principle is that this type of belief contradicts the philosophy prophet Muhammad left for the Muslim Community.

Candor I don't know what you mean by you wouldn't allow your progeny to marry (or settle in America) because of your limited views are not understandable to which classes of people you refer to? Are you saying Muslims of America? Or non-Muslims? Or i they are Muslims they must be of you race or which is it? Either way it sounds ignorant to me, please ellaborate. It's not surprising that from the last few post you written that you showed your ignorance against American Muslims so again please ellaborate....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote candor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2005 at 4:35am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Candor when you say "there are more serious problems besettling the Ummah besides racism" that is equivalent of saying racism is not as important as other issues when that is the issue.

Poverty and political instability are greater issues for most of the Muslims. And in India I haven't faced any  serious racial discrimination by the Muslims here. Some Muslims have sometimes called me names but not really racially discriminated against me.

Quote Secondly, racism is not sectarism. Candor I'm sure sure of your scholastic background but Shias and Sunnis are not distinctive races as there are Arab Sunnis and Arabs Shiites so where you got Sectarian classes as a type of racism is amusing to me. Thirdly to assume that the Muslim community will "war off" racist belief itself is idealistic but its not plausible. That's like saying the ignorant will stop being ignorant unless the ignorant realizes he is ignorant. That is ridiculous! Those who exercise prejudice may not believe they are prejudice so how can you say they will solve the issue themselves if they are unaware?

I assumed that you believe that the word 'racism' encompasses all types of discrimination. Therefore, the confusion.

 

Quote Forthly on this matter when I discuss racism I don't mean the isolation of a Muslim versus a Non-Muslim (which you seem to show in your post) I mean within the muslim community i.e A Muslim Arab racist against A Muslim Pakistani e.t.c

I meant the same thing earlier.

I don't know of any racial discrimination that exists among Muslims within India. But I have heard that Mohajirs (i.e,Muslims who migrated to Pakistan at the time of partn. of India in 1947) face some discrimination in Pakistan, but you can confirm it through any Mohajir you might know that its not a big issue for them.  

However, Pakistani Army did commit excesses against the Bangladeshis, who were Muslims. But the impression I have got from chatting with some of the Bangladeshis is that they don't hate/blame the people of Pakistan for that. Pakistanis claim that they don't hate Bengalis, either.

About the Arabs, there are very few around here therfore I can't say. Indian Muslims and Pakistanis who go to Gulf states face discrimination while searching for jobs (i.e. locals are preferred over them) from the government, but that is natural because they are not the citizens of the same State.

 

 

About my views on racism that exist amongst Muslims currently, let me explain it to you through an analogy. During the World Wars, English and Germans used to hate each other and those of opposite lineages/descent living in their country were suspected and thus, racially discriminated against. However, once the War was over Germans were freely accepted in America and Australia as immigrants but not the people with dark skin.

 

I believe, currently racism among Muslims does not exist in more serious form than it existed between Germans and the English during the World Wars.

That is, Muslims mostly racially discriminate against fellow Muslims only at times of war (rarely, otherwise).



Edited by candor
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote candor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2005 at 4:51am

I consider it relevent to post in this thread that when there was a war in Rwanda Hutu Muslims saved their Tutsi Muslim neighbours while Hutu non-Muslims betrayed their Tutsi neighbours.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Khadija1021 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 November 2005 at 8:22am

Assalamu Alaikum

It never ceases to amaze me how people go about justifying putting cultural and traditions above Islam.  It is clear in both the Qur�an and the life of the Prophet that the one and only true criteria of marriage is the condition of a person�s deen.  To place other conditions prior to that is to go against the basic principles of Islam.

Brother Candor, why is it okay to come to the US to take advantage of the economy but not allow your offspring to marry a good Muslim in the US?  If the US Muslim community and American way of life is not good enough for your family, then there is something seriously wrong about thinking its money is any better.  If the society is corrupt, don�t you think that any money you would obtain from that society would therefore not be halal for you?  It is clear in Islam that immigration and migration for reasons other than Islam are not truly worth seeking.

Brother Israfil, I beseech you to consider the possibility that the problem is not rooted in race but rather in cultural customs/traditions.  One of the most horrible sicknesses facing the Ummah today is placing local customs/traditions above Islam.  Most people are so accustomed to doing so that they are deaf, dumb and blind to it.  Although I have see cases of some Muslim men who marry outside of their culture, it is very rare to see a Muslimah do this.  For some reason, I think the Ummah has been confused in believing that since Muslimat are not allowed to marry Christians or Jews but Muslim men are, that it means Muslimat also should not marry outside their tight little Ummah within their community.  I honestly don�t think this is because it is what the Muslimat want, but rather, more of a demand on them by their families.  That is why arranged marriages still exists so widely in Islamic communities despite the fact that it is forbidden in Islam.  And it is also why we see �honor killings� in Islamic communities in many parts of the world as well.

Just as racism is a means of control, what you see in the Ummah with respect to marriage is also.  And just as racism is wrong, so is what happens in way too many cases within the Ummah.  Allah gives us clear signs as to what is right and wrong for the Ummah but some humans are inevitably unwilling to see.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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