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Angela 
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Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
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 Posted: 13 January 2006 at 1:03pm |
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The idea that it is permissable to have an abortion until the fourth month is not even agreed on by your own scholars. http://www.jamaat.org/qa/abort.html The scholars at this site say only in cases where the mother's life is at stake....not even rape. So, how is my objection to abortion anti-Islamic. And I have yet to actually be shown a ahadith or quranic verse to clarify the position that it isn't haram to abort the child before 120 days are past. Convincing a woman that its okay just because she's under a given time period is wrong. Unless she is going to die or the child is not going to live as in one of the cases on this sight, then its wrong.
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rami
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 1:15pm |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
im sorry is that suposed to be a legal ruling or an opinion, one is bidning while the other is no more than mere chit chat in comparison. I also noticed you accept what he says yet it is entirely his own personnel reasoning no evidence from Quran or sunnah is he a mujtahid to be giving his own reasoning as a ruling for the matter when clear evidence from the Quran and Sunnah exist? Who is this group? is it a sect or are they offering a legal rulling based an accpted madhhab? are we now simply shoping around for any group which agrees with us on the matter? I sugest you read the fatwah in its entiraty rather than make blanket statments no one encourages abortion but conditions exist when it would be permisable. |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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rami
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 1:28pm |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
regarding the issue of 120 days,   that according to Shari�ah the soul (Ruh) enters the foetus at 120 days (4 months) from conception. The Jurists (Fuqaha) have based this duration upon a Qur�anic verse and a statement of the beloved of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). In the verse Allah states the stages of development of the embryo in the womb of the mother. Allah Almighty says: �And verily we did create man from a quintessence (of clay). Then we placed him (as a drop of sperm) in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then we made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood. Then of that clot we made a (foetus) lump. Then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh. Then we developed out of it another creature (by breathing life into it). So blessed be Allah, the most marvellous creator� (Surah al-Mu�minun, 12/13/14). In the Hadith recorded by the two most authentic authorities, Imam al-Bukhari and Imam Muslim in their respective Sahih collections, the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) discussed in detail the periods elapsing between these stages, mentioned by the Qur�an. Abdullah ibn Mas�ud (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: �The seed of one of you remains in the womb of the mother for forty days in the form of a Nutfa (sperm). Then it remains like a clot for another forty days, and then for a same number of days like a lump of flesh (when the formation of the limbs and the growth of the bones begin) (Sahih al-Bukhari & Sahih Muslim). The great Hanafi Faqeeh Ibn Abidin States in his Radd al-Muhtar: �The soul enters the foutus at one hundred & twenty days (4 months), as established by the Hadith� (Radd al-Muhtar, 1/202) The ruling on abortion in stage (a) i.e. after the entry of the soul into the foetus which is (as explained) 120 days, is that, it is totally impermissible and tantamount to murder, as it results in the taking out of an innocent life. All the scholars have unanimously condemned such a ghastly act. regarding the issue of abortion prior to 120 days,With regards to stage (b) i.e. prior to the entry of the soul into the foetus (120 days), the ruling is that, even in this case it is unlawful (Haram) to abort the pregnancy. The reason why abortion prior to the soul entering the body will not be permitted is that, although there may not be life in the foetus, but the foetus is considered to be part and parcel of the mother�s body as long as it remains in the womb. Thus, just as one�s very own life and also all the limbs and organs of the human body are trust given by the Almighty Creator, so too is the foetus also a trust given to the mother by Allah, and she will not have a right to abort it. The only difference here is that the sin of aborting the foetus will be of a lesser degree then aborting it after 120 days. It would not be regarded as murder, rather violating the rights of a human organ entrusted to the mother by Allah Almighty. see the raminder of the fatwah for more detail. |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Angela
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Joined: 11 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2555 |
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 1:31pm |
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That's the problem, If I wanted to I could "shop" around for scholars that agree or disagree with me Rami. That is why when I look at an Islamic reason, I want to see an ahadith or quranic verse. That avoids the arguements on whether or not this cleric is right and that cleric is wrong. There are so many sects and variations in Islam....so how can you definitively tell me I am wrong? Okay, we'll go with the assumption that the "Ruh" doesn't enter the physical flesh until 120 days. Does that make it any more right or wrong? If that body is intended for a soul, then are you not denying that soul its foreordained body???? |
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Angela
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 1:34pm |
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Now, that makes a whole lot more sense than what you were talking about....except one thing....sperm lives 24-72 hours in the body....the clot like thing called a blastocyst starts forming days after conception....other than that...it makes more sense to tell a woman ITS STILL WRONG even if there is no soul yet.
(I'm adding this, I was just told the Sheikh you are quoting is some like Major Scholar....like me quoting Martin Luther, or Joseph Smith, etc....if you are going to use someone with this kind of reputation when answering a Non Muslim, please indicate the accepted authority of this person. I have no idea if the name you give is a historical authority or your local Imam.) Edited by Angela |
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rami
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Posted: 13 January 2006 at 2:11pm |
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem
thank you to the person who informed you they saved me an argument  regarding who to follow? this is a rough break down of the muslim world, Sunni muslims comprise roughly 90% of all muslims, the other major group is Shia they are roughly 5% probably more but not by much. The overwhelming majority of muslims follow one of four schools of thought, Egypt and Asian Onciania countries are Shafii, North Africans are Maliki, Turkey and some Middle eastern countries are Hanafi while other middle eastern countries are hanbali. out of these four the Major madhabs are the Hanafi and Shafii in terms of population. Western Muslims are comprised of fragmented groups which is why you dont see them even knowing what a madhhab is, the only other exception is Saudi arabia which is wahhabi they also have big influence with western muslims. If you Quote any ruling which is from any madhhab it would be accptable for any muslim to follow even if it is the opposite of what i mentioned, this is how muslims treat diferences of opinion as long as the opinion is from an expert and not an unqualified person or sect. otherwise if the person follows Saudi you Quote for them from there scholars, generaly speaking people who adhere to the madhhabs do not accept rulings from them, i dont think they have a diferent opinion on this matter though allahu alam. I was Quoting the Hanafi madhhab as the Fatwah stated, i was under the asumption you had read the legal rulling but insha allah i will consider your sugestion in the future. If you do the math on the sections i quoted you will arrive at 120 days, although i should state hadith are not legal rullings so even if i quote a few ahadith or versus from the Quran it would be impermisable to take them as fatwah. Far to many issues exist which must be sorted out beffore we ensure that what we are Quoting is not abrogated or conditional or only part of the picture i could give you examples of how easy it is to confuse and misguide your self by taking a hadith as your fatwah the matter needs to be investigated and the utmost care taken. Edited by rami |
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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Nausheen
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Posted: 15 January 2006 at 10:11am |
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Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem, Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,
Angela, The Quran is sometimes silent on certain specifics, which are detailed in the hadith literature. If I am not wrong the following verses are closest to your querry: 032.007 032.008 032.009 Thru the hadith we get a closer picture of the events that follow in succession in a mother's womb. The following are from Al-Bukhari Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud Allah's Apostle the true and truly inspired, narrated to us, "The creation of everyone of you starts with the process of collecting the material for his body within forty days and forty nights in the womb of his mother. Then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period (40 days) and then he becomes like a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then an angel is sent to him (by Allah) and the angel is allowed (ordered) to write four things; his livelihood, his (date of) death, his deeds, and whether he will be a wretched one or a blessed one (in the Hereafter) and then the soul is breathed into him.So one of you may do (good) deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise so much that there is nothing except a cubit between him and Paradise but then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of Hell (Fire) and (ultimately) enters Hell (Fire); and one of you may do (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of Hell (Fire) so much so that there is nothing except a cubit between him and Hell (Fire), thenwhat has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing(good) deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise and ultimately) enters Paradise." Narrated 'Abdullah Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, "Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turnsinto a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a personamong you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till thereis only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there isonly a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it." Narrated Abdullah Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(as regards your creation), every one of you is collected in the womb of his mother forthe first forty days, and then he becomes a clot for an other forty days, and then a piece of flesh for an other forty days. Then Allah sends an angel to write four words: He writes his deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into his body. So a man may do deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between him and it,and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses, and so he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise and entersParadise. Similarly, a person may do deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise, so much so that there is only the distance of a cubit between him and it, and then what has been written (by the angel) surpasses, and he starts doing deeds of the people of the (Hell) Fire and enters the (Hell) Fire. Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of theCreation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise." Edited by Nausheen |
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<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR] |
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MayPB
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Joined: 21 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 75 |
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Posted: 17 January 2006 at 8:43am |
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Rami you implied that to take a pro-life stand is "Western". My quiestion for you is what is unislamic about that? Is this what is being taught in Islamic schools in the "East"? My hope is that Islam will reach it's full potential in the United States but Muslims must incoorporate their values into our system of government. As far as abortion is concerned that means joining the pro-life movement, which already craves diversity. This idea of going to a scholar to look up advice doesn't appeal to me because it undermines people's abitlity to make their own informed decisions on the subject. |
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Angela wrote: