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Gabriel: "Read" or "Recite?"

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BMZ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2006 at 9:00pm

Wa Alaikum Assalaam, Mishmish.

That is correct and people should understand that easily.

BR

BMZ

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Cyril View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 12:53am
The word "ummiyy" which is used in the Quran to mean unlettered also means "who has not received a Scriptures from God".
Some scholars believe the second meaning is the right one in the Quran.

At the time of the Prophet Arabs used a very clumsy system of writing which was difficult to read. Besides they did not have paper and pens as we have. So the art of reading and writing was taken up by scribes. No important or affluent person would write by himself but would have secretaries do it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 3:38am

Cyril,

Greetings & Welcome!

Yes, you are right. It also means those people who were not given a book or those who had not received any revelations or scriptures from God Almighty before.

The Prophet, the Meccans and Arabs were thus Ummees. This time, the message and revelations were not given to those who already had the books but they were given to an entirely new people who received them for the first time and have since faithfully kept it intact.

Best Reagrds & Salaams

BMZ

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George View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 5:19am
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Assalamu Alaikum:

The Prophet(PBUH) put his mark on the letters by using a wax and his ring, which was engraved: Mohammed Messenger of Allah. The letters he sent were written at his behest, not by him.

The Quran states quite clearly that the Prophet was unlettered. At least he was alive at the time and able to dictate what should be written to his companions and the people around him, so that years after his death things would not be written that take on mystical proportions and turn him into something he was not....

 

Mishmish,

This is the first time I've heard of the ring.  Do you know if any of the documents that have the imprint of Muhammad's ring still exist?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 5:24am

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

The word "ummiyy" which is used in the Quran to mean unlettered also means "who has not received a Scriptures from God".
Some scholars believe the second meaning is the right one in the Quran.

At the time of the Prophet Arabs used a very clumsy system of writing which was difficult to read. Besides they did not have paper and pens as we have. So the art of reading and writing was taken up by scribes. No important or affluent person would write by himself but would have secretaries do it.

Cyril, I think the explanation of the meaning of the word ummiyy makes the most sense. It doesn't necessarily mean that Muhammad was illiterate.  I have read that a common interpretation of the expression an-nabiyyal-ummi is "the Gentile Prophet." 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote George Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 6:25am

Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed.

When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote herjihad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 6:54am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader fredifreeloader wrote:

of course muhammad could read and write.

see sahih bukhari vol7book62no.88 - he wrote the marriage contract with aisha.  also - vol1book3no.114 - "i shall write for you a statement".  also vol5book59no.717 - "come near, i will write for you something after which you will not go astray" ------also vol4book53no.393 - he wants a bone of scapula to write on

Bismillah,

As brother Bmz pointed out here, many languages are differently structured, so we have to think of what the speakers of this particular language intended rather than try to do word-for-word translations and get the incorrect meanings from proceeding in that course.

These quotes refer to a way of speech that denotes many things.  For example, the marriage contract of an illiterate man's daughter is signed in reality.  Then the dad will say:  Katabna alkitab, meaning literally:  We wrote the contract, but in actuality since everyone around him knows he is illiterate it means:  We executed the marriage contract and someone else wrote it down.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BMZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2006 at 7:34am

George,

From you:"Another thing that bothers me about this story is the reaction of Muhammad when encountered by the angel.  He is severely afraid and distressed.

When I compare his encounter with Mary and Joseph's encounter with Gabriel I see a distinct difference.  They are not afraid."

Grieve and worry not, George. Forget the story. There are plenty of stories floating around. Here is what God Almighty says in Qur'aan, Surah 53 Al-Najm Verses 1-17(Just a very, very simple translation for you):

"When the star sets. Neither your fellow-man thought something was wrong nor was he deluded. And he does not just speak out on his own. He speaks only what has been revealed to him. Taught by the mighty knowledgeable Gabriel, an angel full of power, who showed himself to him by appearing over the higher part of horizon and came nearer and nearer till he was very close to him. And then God revealed to his servant what God wished to reveal. His heart did not disbelieve what he saw. Will you then doubt on what he saw? Indeed he saw the angel in his true form a second time at the farthest point of his ascension, near the Garden of promise and saw the Garden Tree covered in splendour and his eyes did not waver nor did they oggle. Truly he saw the greatest signs of his Lord."

What does the above tell me and the Muslims? It tells us that Muhammad was in all senses, his eyes were open and looking. He saw the angel clearly as he came gradually very close to him. Then he saw the greatest signs of the Lord and yet his eyes never faultered for he knew what he was seeing.

After reading the above, you, me and others do not have to believe in stories written by men. Qur'aan clearly tells us that Muhammad never felt sick or delusional, etc.

Hope this helped. I cannot do the tafseer for this as it will run into pages and pages which is true, quote form Qur'aan:

"If all the oceans were ink to write the words of my Lord, the oceans would be consumed as ink before the words of My Lord could complete and not enough, even if more oceans were brought in and added."

Note: fellow-man refers to Muhammad.

 



Edited by bmzsp
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