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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 9:12am

O my dear bro community, is it possible for you to respond in one reply than using multiples and thus generating multiple emails for reminders to others on this thread? This would be easier for someone to respond to your comments more comphrensively and yet generating one single email for reminder. Thanks any way for your precious replies. Here is my response to yours

Quote I know you can not agree with me for some reason Ahmadjoya, wether this is because of your tradition or what but i should not react like that so i will re-react,"

Agreeing to someone is only a matter of common understanding of a logic used, at least for me, and nothing else. I hope this is important to you as well.

Quote Stoning is not mentioned in the koran, not once and still we find this very severe punishment for adultery in the shariah for those who uphold the koran(muslimeen) What happened to higher criticism here?
Your example is understandably good to those who wants to use basic human logic and wisdom in their matters. I don't disagree with this. However, I still call such examples as human errors and nothing wrong with the science of Hadith collection. Nevertheless, this particular hadith comes from Hz. Umar, which doesn't tell us if such a punishment by Prophet Mohammad was prescribed before or after the relevent verses on Zina were revealed in Quran. Most probably, it was before their revelation in Quran. Hence, I think, there is no sense to superceed Quranic injunctions through ahadith, especially once the verses are very clear. Hence, in this case, I think, human error of judgement can't be ruled out.

Quote are we there yet? that is all i am saying because i do not feel re writing my whole post again, it's useless because you actually test the koran according to the words of scholars and their methodology and ahadith and not the other way around. 

This example, or few others such like this, can't be considered adequate to do away with rich resource of ahadith collection, refined through ilm ul ahadith or as what you insist to call it methodology of knowldge about ahadith, though science is also nothing but a methodology of getting knowledge.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 11:08am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia AhmadJoyia wrote:

Quote Stoning is not mentioned in the koran, not once and still we find this very severe punishment for adultery in the shariah for those who uphold the koran(muslimeen) What happened to higher criticism here?

Your example is understandably good to those who wants to use basic human logic and wisdom in their matters. I don't disagree with this. However, I still call such examples as human errors and nothing wrong with the science of Hadith collection. Nevertheless, this particular hadith comes from Hz. Umar, which doesn't tell us if such a punishment by Prophet Mohammad was prescribed before or after the relevent verses on Zina were revealed in Quran. Most probably, it was before their revelation in Quran. Hence, I think, there is no sense to superceed Quranic injunctions through ahadith, especially once the verses are very clear. Hence, in this case, I think, human error of judgement can't be ruled out.

So is the difference of opinion a mercy for the community of muslimeen particulary in this instance when lives are taken?

I ask you, what holds leaders of the muslimeen back from choosing the most merciful approach in judgement? if they have faith in Arrahmaan, The Merciful and hope for His mercy then it would be logical for them to be as merciful as they can right?

Last question i would like for you to consider, the prophet was sent but as a mercy to mankind[quran], then can the shariah hold laws that are unmerciful? I do not believe the polytheists of mecca were of opinion that when he judged he was unjust or unmerciful, they just did not wish to give up their idolworship, but now people are of opinion that the shariah is unjust and unmerciful so they believe the prophet was also because people claim that is his way.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 4:09pm

Difference of opinion is in nature of mankind, mercy or no mercy, irrespective. Isn't it? However, the thing to emphasize is as these opinions are realized when final decision is taken by the hakim. When that decision is taken, it is imperative for all to obey, though may still have the differences among them. This is the norm of any civilized society let it alone be of Muslim in nature.

Islamic Laws or Shariah, has a methodology to base upon and its not from whimsical ideas of one or two genius minds, but needs to involve the whole of Ummah. But again, even the Ummah, can make errors which must be rectified as soon as the mistakes are realized. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 4:45pm

"Islamic Laws or Shariah, has a methodology to base upon and its not from whimsical ideas of one or two genius minds, but needs to involve the whole of Ummah. But again, even the Ummah, can make errors which must be rectified as soon as the mistakes are realized."

Very reasonable, howabout making it possible for judges to be replaced if they fail to be as merciful as possible? this would mean by not adopting a verdict which is not in contradiction with the words of Allah but is more merciful and just then the verdict of the judge. In my opinion a true judge should put the wellbeing of the people and the state before his position as judge. People should be able to counter a judgement made by a hakim if people believe it is unjust or unmerciful and have the book of Allah as basis for their objection. And why not make the person who objected and who had a more merciful verdict the new judge? and same for him if someone finds his verdict as unmerciful and has a better judgement, then he should be able to replace the previous judge and so on. I am of opinion that this way you guarantee the increase of justice and mercy for all.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 5:43pm
This ummah should not be stale, but should be like flowing water filling all the gaps and spaces it can flow to and fill it with justice and mercy. I use the example of water because of it's submissive attribute to the laws of Allah which everyone can understand, it is submitted to His law of gravity and i chose it as an example also because of it's humble attribute in that it flows from high to low. It should not be an issue for this ummah to be flexible and putting the greater good before itself, and so the individuals of this ummah should practice selfless service, they should not mind stepping aside and support others who come with a better way in dealing with affairs. In my opinion, there is nothing better then to put a judge under the recuirements of being merciful and just, and that if he fails in any of these recuirments he be replaced by the one who comes with proof from the words of Allah that he does not meet the recuirments. And this is all in the spirit of mercy, so the judge would appreciate that person as being better in judgement and would not find any resistance in his heart to let the new judge take his place, there are many ways of service to Allah and a good judge understands this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 5:45pm
I think, there is no reason to criticize a "Judge" as he is only to decide; Decide according to the law of a society. There is little element of "mercy" or "no mercy" in his decisions. Since I don't want to go astray from the main topic, hence I shall not continue in this discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 5:52pm
The Judgement is to The Merciful(Arrahmaan). And no one can equal Him, people however can equal eachother or surpass eachother and because of this people should not hinder from the path of Arrahmaan.(by denying mercy and justice) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2005 at 6:03pm

Originally posted by community community wrote:

Very reasonable, howabout making it possible for judges to be replaced if they fail to be as merciful as possible?
Kindly see my remarks with reference to yours only and not in any other terms. Thanks.

 



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