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Servetus

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Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:23pm

Welcome to the discussions, Athanasius:

�BYU = Missionaries. Beware! How ironic, when you understand that the Mormons think they are the true Jews (mostly from the tribe of Ephraim)! So, the true Jews (Mormons) are attempting to proselytize the Israeli Jews. How strange.�

It does seem rather ironic, in a sense. But then again, as I understand, and to extend both the irony and the sense of strangeness, Christians in general, or at least the devotees of St. Paul (Galatians 4:22-31), think that they are the �child of promise,� the �true,� or �spiritual� Israel as well.

�Will the real Slim Shadey please stand up?�

When it comes to religion, and especially to the various sects of Christianity, it seems to me that ironies abound!

Serv, momentary secularist

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Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:36pm

Yes, Serv, it is true that Christians believe they are "spiritual" Israel. Recent DNA studies have amply proved that the American Indians, far from being Jews, are of Mongolian origin, as anthropologists have contended right along.

As far as "spiritual" Israel is concerned, there are two different views in Christian circules. One is this: Replacement theology - which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel as the chosen nation, and it has inherited all the blessings of Israel. The Second is the dispensational view which teaches that God has two separate agendas - one for the Church and another for Israel, which will be restored to its former land and accept Christ as Savior.

A third view, called preterist, is that most of prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jewish temple was destroyed. Some preterists see that is the Second Coming, and others still look for a Second Coming. In any case, neither group sees Israel as anything special today.

Your post has been edited. This is your second warning.

Edited by Mishmish

Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.

Servetus

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Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:50pm

Thanks, Athanasius. In relation to the three views you mention, and if I could switch your attention from Mormonism to Christianity in general for the moment, do you have any sense of how it is that St. Paul�s conclusion in the above reference to Galatians is interpreted? What does this mean: �cast out the bondswoman [Mosaic covenant?]� and how, especially with the latter type, or �dispensational� view, can Christianity, the so-called �child of promise,� peacefully co-exist with the allegorical �child of flesh [Judaism?]?�

In the resolution of this apparent paradox might reside certain insights into Christianity�s relation to Islam, it seems to me.

Serv

Edited by Servetus

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Posted: 13 April 2006 at 1:48pm

The typology here is basically contrasting Law and Grace. The Jews believe they are saved by a righteousness of their own - which derives from keeping the Torah's commandments. In actuality, no person can keep all God's laws, and therefore, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," in terms of anyone meriting salvation.

Of the New Covenant, Paul says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for "The just shall live by faith., And the law is not of faith, but the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ......" Galatians 3:11-14.

Here Paul teaches the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Christ is imputed to be sin for us (cursed on the tree), that Christians might be imputed as having Christ's righteousness. It is an exchange made at the cross. The blessing of Abraham "might come," or comes on the Gentiles. In other words, the elect are now those in Christ, and have become Abraham's children by faith.

Paul is using here typologies which would be easily understood by Jewish believers - and please note, Galatians is primarily written to rebuke the attempt to Judaize the Christian Church.

In our day, we have a movement called "the Hebraic Roots movment" and also the "Noahide" movement - both attempts by Judaizers within the Church to bring believers back under Jewish law.

Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.

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Servetus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109	Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:23pm
	Welcome to the discussions, Athanasius: �BYU = Missionaries. Beware! How ironic, when you understand that the Mormons think they are the true Jews (mostly from the tribe of Ephraim)! So, the true Jews (Mormons) are attempting to proselytize the Israeli Jews. How strange.� It does seem rather ironic, in a sense. But then again, as I understand, and to extend both the irony and the sense of strangeness, Christians in general, or at least the devotees of St. Paul (Galatians 4:22-31), think that they are the �child of promise,� the �true,� or �spiritual� Israel as well. �Will the real Slim Shadey please stand up?� When it comes to religion, and especially to the various sects of Christianity, it seems to me that ironies abound! Serv, momentary secularist

Athanasius Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 13 April 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 65	Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:36pm
	Yes, Serv, it is true that Christians believe they are "spiritual" Israel. Recent DNA studies have amply proved that the American Indians, far from being Jews, are of Mongolian origin, as anthropologists have contended right along. As far as "spiritual" Israel is concerned, there are two different views in Christian circules. One is this: Replacement theology - which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel as the chosen nation, and it has inherited all the blessings of Israel. The Second is the dispensational view which teaches that God has two separate agendas - one for the Church and another for Israel, which will be restored to its former land and accept Christ as Savior. A third view, called preterist, is that most of prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jewish temple was destroyed. Some preterists see that is the Second Coming, and others still look for a Second Coming. In any case, neither group sees Israel as anything special today. Your post has been edited. This is your second warning. Edited by Mishmish
	Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.

Servetus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109	Posted: 13 April 2006 at 12:50pm
	Thanks, Athanasius. In relation to the three views you mention, and if I could switch your attention from Mormonism to Christianity in general for the moment, do you have any sense of how it is that St. Paul�s conclusion in the above reference to Galatians is interpreted? What does this mean: �cast out the bondswoman [Mosaic covenant?]� and how, especially with the latter type, or �dispensational� view, can Christianity, the so-called �child of promise,� peacefully co-exist with the allegorical �child of flesh [Judaism?]?� In the resolution of this apparent paradox might reside certain insights into Christianity�s relation to Islam, it seems to me. Serv Edited by Servetus

Athanasius Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Guest Group Joined: 13 April 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 65	Posted: 13 April 2006 at 1:48pm
	The typology here is basically contrasting Law and Grace. The Jews believe they are saved by a righteousness of their own - which derives from keeping the Torah's commandments. In actuality, no person can keep all God's laws, and therefore, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," in terms of anyone meriting salvation. Of the New Covenant, Paul says, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for "The just shall live by faith., And the law is not of faith, but the man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ......" Galatians 3:11-14. Here Paul teaches the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Christ is imputed to be sin for us (cursed on the tree), that Christians might be imputed as having Christ's righteousness. It is an exchange made at the cross. The blessing of Abraham "might come," or comes on the Gentiles. In other words, the elect are now those in Christ, and have become Abraham's children by faith. Paul is using here typologies which would be easily understood by Jewish believers - and please note, Galatians is primarily written to rebuke the attempt to Judaize the Christian Church. In our day, we have a movement called "the Hebraic Roots movment" and also the "Noahide" movement - both attempts by Judaizers within the Church to bring believers back under Jewish law.
	Freedom is a gift from God - to deny men freedom is to worship evil.