|
Jesus� Second Coming |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 56789 10> |
| Author | |
Servetus 
Senior Member 
Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: 23 May 2006 at 1:34pm |
|
Mishmish, I understand your viewpoint. Thank you for making the point. No argument (at present) from my side. Serv |
|
 |
|
|
BMZ
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 23 May 2006 at 7:22pm |
|
George, From you to Mishmish: "You are talking about what I call Muhammadian Islam." I would not call any religion Abrahamian Islam or Mosaican Islam or Jacobian Islam or Josephian Islam or Jesusarian Islam. I would just call it Islam the religion. If we were to look at Christianity through your eyes and reasoning, then Christianity is Paulanian religion, for that is not what the Master taught. From you, George to Mishmish: "Can you really picture Jesus running around the Kab-bah 7 times and throwing rocks at the devil?" Yes, I can! Why not? If I could see him running and hiding, sitting in a boat, walking on water, getting stones thrown at him, all in the way of God; I can see him in a two-piece towel suit called Ihram, circling (not running around, as we don't run around, we walk around), the Ka'aba seven times, praising the Glory of God Almighty, going on to perform the Hajj, etc. After all it was not Muhammad who initiated that. It was initiated by Abraham and I am sure Jesus would have loved to do what his Great Great GGGGrand father did. From you to Mishmish: "All Christians and all Jews submit or surrender to the will of God." Yes they do and have to submit and surreneder to the WILL of the One Lord God Almighty, as Moses and Jesus did with full humility and obedience like servants. There is no other choice.
Edited by bmzsp |
|
|
|
|
AbRah2006
Guest Group 
Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 May 2006 at 3:59am |
|
George's statement:You are talking about what I call Muhammadian Islam. Can you really picture Jesus running around the Kab-bah 7 times and throwing rocks at the devil? All Christians and all Jews submit or surrender to the will of God. ------------------------------------------------------------ ---- My response: It seems to me that you George don't know Islam. What is Islam? The word "Islam" is an Arabic word which means "submission to the will of God". This word comes from the same root as the Arabic word "salam", which means "peace". As such, the religion of Islam teaches that in order to achieve true peace of mind and surety of heart, one must submit to God and live according to His Divinely revealed Law. The most important truth that God revealed to mankind is that there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God, thus all human beings should submit to Him. The word "Muslim" means one who submits to the will of God, regardless of their race, nationality or ethnic background. Being a Muslim entails willful submission and active obedience to God, and living in accordance with His message. Islam is not a new religion because "submission to the will of God", i.e. Islam, has always been the only acceptable religion in the sight of God. For this reason, Islam is the true "natural religion", and it is the same eternal message revealed through the ages to all of God's prophets and messengers. Muslims believe that all of God's prophets, which include Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, brought the same message of Pure Monotheism. For this reason, the Prophet Muhammad was not the founder of a new religion, as many people mistakenly think, but he was the Final Prophet of Islam. By revealing His final message to Muhammad, which is an eternal and universal message for all of mankind, God finally fulfilled the covenant that He made with Abraham, who was one of the earliest and greatest prophets. Suffice it to say that the way of Islam is the same as the way of the prophet Abraham, because both the Bible and the Qur'an portray Abraham as a towering example of someone who submitted himself completely to God and worshipped Him without intermediaries. Once this is realized, it should be clear that Islam has the most continuous and universal message of any religion, because all prophets and messengers were "Muslims", i.e. those who submitted to God's will, and they preached "Islam", i.e. submission to the will of Almighty God.
Therefore Jesus is a Muslim and he is a messenger of Allah for Allah sent him to the house of Israel: Throughout the Qur�aan, Jesus is identified fundamentally as a Messenger of God. In Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus as follows:
Even the New Testament agrees with the Holy Quran by saying in Matthew 21:11, the people of his time are recorded as referring to Jesus as a prophet: �And the crowds said, �This is the prophet Jesus of Nazareth of Galilee.� � .....According to Matthew 15:22-28:He [Jesus] answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.'
Part of Prophet Jesus� message was to inform his followers of the prophet who would come after him. As John the Baptist heralded the coming of Jesus Christ, Jesus in turn heralded the coming of the last of the prophets of God, Muhammad.
In the Qur�aan, Chapter as-Saff (61):6, God quotes Jesus� prophesy about Muhammad:
�(Remember) when Jesus, son of Mary, said, �O Children of Israel, I am the Messenger of Allaah sent to you, confirming the Torah before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger coming after me, whose name will be Ahmad.� Christian laymen usually interpret the �Counselor� mentioned in John 14:16 as the Holy Spirit. Note:See John 14:26, �But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things...� However, in 1st John 4:1, the term �Spirit� is used to refer to a prophet, �Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.� However, the phrase �another Counselor� implies that it will be someone else like Jesus and not the Holy Spirit, especially considering John 16:7, in which Jesus is reported to have said, �Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.� The term �Counselor� could not be referring to the Holy Spirit here, because�according to the Gospels�the Holy Spirit was already present in the world prior to Jesus� birth, as well as during his ministry. Note: (i)John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother�s womb (Luke 1:15); Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41); John�s father, Zacharias, was also filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke:1:67). (ii)The Holy Spirit was on Simeon (Luke 2:26) and it descended in the shape of a dove on Jesus (Luke 3:22). This verse implies that the �Counselor� had not already come. Jesus� declaration that the prophet-counselor �will be with you forever,� could be interpreted to mean that there would be no need for additional prophets to succeed this Counselor. He would be the last of the Prophets of God, whose message would be preserved until the end of the world. (Jesus, A Prophet of Islam, p. 13)
God sends the prophet Muhammad as His last messenger to all mankind:
The Prophet's mission, however, is universal. Allah (S.W.T.) (Subhanahu wa ta�ala, meaning: the Exalted, Most Glorious) tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) is no more than a Messenger (Qur�an 3: 144), the unlettered Prophet who believes in Him and His Words (Qur�an 7: 158). He is the Seal of the Prophets and the true universal Messenger of All�h to the whole mankind (Qur�an 33: 40). Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty, makes this very clear:
"We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but as a universal (Messenger) to men giving them glad tidings and warning them (against sin) but most men understand not." (Qur�n 34: 28)
The Messenger (s.a.w.s.) possesses an exalted (standard of) character (Qur�an 68:4) and an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah (S.W.T.) and the Final Day, and who remembers Allah (S.W.T.) much (Qur�an 33: 21). Allah (S.W.T.) endowed him with exalted standard of character for us to follow. Every aspect of his life has been fully dealt with, providing complete guidance to the whole mankind. For our guidance, Allah (S.W.T.), the All-Mighty commands us to believe and obey His Messenger (s.a.w.s.):
"Say (O Muhammad to mankind): �If you (really) love All�h then follow me (i.e. accept Isl�mic Monotheism, follow the Qur��n and the Sunnah), All�h will love you and forgive you your sins. And All�h is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.� Say (O Muhammad): �Obey All�h and the Messenger (Muhammad).� But if they turn away, then All�h does not like the disbelievers." (Qur�an 3: 31)
"O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad) with the truth from your Rabb (Sustainer). So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to All�h belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And All�h is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise." (Qur�n 4: 170)
"O you who believe! Obey All�h, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Qur�n 47: 33)
It is a must that we obey Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.). Allah (S.W.T.) tells us that he who obeys His Messenger (s.a.w.s.) obeys Him:
"He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad) has indeed obeyed All�h, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (Muhammad) as a watcher over them." (Qur�n 4: 80) Allah (S.W.T.) sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to make it prevail over all religions. He (I) says: "It is He (Allah) Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth that he may proclaim it over all religion even though the Pagans may detest (it)." (Qur�n 61: 9)
Edited by AbRah2006 |
|
|
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
|
|
|
|
|
AbRah2006
Guest Group
Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 24 May 2006 at 4:51am |
|
_______________________________________________________ George's statement: From what I heard the reference to Jesus breaking the cross means that he will disavow Christianity and say that he is a Muhammadian Muslim. My response: Jesus is a prophet of Allah according to Quran so Jesus is a Muslim: The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger: "The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).
God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity: "People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: �God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171). He will come to refute the Christian false claims that 'Jesus is the son of God'. The Quran also states: "Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4). "Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, �Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35). He will come to refute the Christian false claims that 'Jesus is God': 'And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden." '(Quran 5:119) ------------------------------------------------------------ ------ George's statement: He (Jesus) is supposed to kill all the pigs too, whatever that means. Poor pigs. It could be a reference to Jews because Allah called the Jews monkeys and pigs. Do you think he's going to kill all the Jews? My response: (i)Jesus kills pigs (Mark 5:11-13) (ii) Please show me the Quranic verse that calls the Jews monkeys and pigs! |
|
|
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
|
|
|
|
|
George
Senior Member 
Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:35am |
|
AbRah,
(ii) Please show me the Quranic verse that calls the Jews monkeys and pigs! 005.060
002.065
007.166
SHAKIR: Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated. Commentary: Although in the Koran, transformation into apes and pigs is connected only with Jews, Koranic commentary links transformation into apes and pigs with Christians as well. Verse 5:112-115 relates that the Apostles wanted to know whether God could bring down a table laden with food from the heavens. Jesus directed this request to God, and it was answered. However, God warned him that anyone who ate at the table and would then commit blasphemy would be punished in a way that no one had yet been punished. In his commentary on this verse, the renowned 10th century commentator Al-Tabari[17] says, that despite God's warning, some did commit blasphemy and were punished by being turned into apes and pigs � or, in another version, only into pigs.[18] Another verse linking Christians with apes and pigs is 3:61; according to the commentary on this verse, a deputation of Christians from Najran came to Al-Madina to debate the Prophet about the question: Was Jesus the son of God, as the Christians claimed, or flesh and blood, with no mother or father, like the first man, as the Muslims claimed? After finding that they could not agree, they decided to meet again and curse each other, thinking that God's curse would apply to whichever of them was lying. When the Christian deputation saw that the Prophet brought with him his relatives from the 'Ali bin Abu Taleb family, they were frightened, and acknowledged his prophetic mission and decided to make peace with him, recognize his rule, and pay j izya [poll tax paid by non-Muslims under Muslim rule]. According to a Hadith of the Prophet, cited mostly in Shi'ite sources, had they instead cursed him they would have been turned into apes and pigs.[19] In the Islamic traditions, Muslims too were threatened with being turned into apes and pigs. However, for Jews and Christians this punishment was a thing of the past, for Muslims it would be meted out on Judgment Day. In his article "Apes, Pigs, and the Islamic Identity," the researcher U. Rubin indicates that the Muslims threatened with being turned into animals were not ordinary sinners, but those whose sin had a Jewish or Christian nature. The use of a punishment connected to Jews and Christians was aimed at fighting Jewish and Christian influence in Islamic society that threatened the unique Islamic identity. Islamic identity was supposed to be based on unity and morality; thus, any Muslims imitating Jews or Christians constituted a threat to it. http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr& amp;ID=SR01102 You might want to look at this video where a 3 � child calls Jews monkeys and pigs. http://www.memri.org/video/index.html The Muslim Woman Magazine: Hosted by Doaa 'Amer Peace |
|
|
|
|
BMZ
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 26 May 2006 at 9:48am |
|
When Jesus called the Jews,"Ye brood of vipers", all the Jews, facing him, turned into vipers. Then all the Jews wriggled away. I have already explained this before. Is this the way to understand scriptures? Good Night BMZ |
|
|
|
|
George
Senior Member
Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2006 at 7:39am |
Sorry, I am missing your point. Peace |
|
|
|
|
BMZ
Moderator Group
Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: 27 May 2006 at 9:00am |
|
George, You should not have missed the point. "Be as apes or swines" simply means that "If one does not behave the way God Almighty expects one to and one behaves in a lowly manner, then one is behaving like animals, so OK, go ahead and behave like apes or swines, meaning the Jews are being told 'you are behaving like animals.' " Do you seriously believe that the Jews were turned into apes and swines physically by God? Some Muslims literally translate and understand it to mean that way but that is wrong. When Moses had brought them out, went up the Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments and Aaron was forced to make a golden calf, the people were behaving like apes and swines. Hope this clarified and you've got the point. Edited by bmzsp |
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 56789 10> |
Tweet
|
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
AbRah2006 wrote: