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The Great Jihad ?

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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 6:43am
"Why the entire world should witness it at that particular time? Was there a Hubble Telescope or a space center, zooming on the moon all the time? Or you think ALL people on the earth had to be staring at moon at the very same moment? However, Islam left an evidence for the entire world forever: Quran."
Hmmmmmmmmm. I did not say all people. But perhaps the hemisphere in semi or complete darkness. But you are correct. Unless people were actually looking - they'd have missed seeing the event. It still does not explain why we are still here, if the moon actually split.
"......unless only a few among them for intellectual people to understand something?"  What are 'intellectual' people meant to understand and why only 'intellectual' people ?
How do you know God prevents millions of tsunamis and earthquakes ? If God prevents that many - then God should prevent them all. It's unfair and inconsistent.   And why not the 'intellectual' people wiped out by the 'few'. Nearly always the poor and starving in the world who are most often afflicted with these disasters. Some would have claimed that 'God' punished certain people, mostly Muslims/Hindus with the tsunami, for not believing in Christ. Does Islam believe similarly. If there is a tsumami or hurricane or earthquake that hits a certain population - it's 'God's punishmnent' for whatever.
"Although for everybody specific convincing evidences exist, but as I said before, today the entire world can witness Quran, a book with proved accuracy. In twenty first century (when human being is proud of science and intellect) it is the most consistent miracle, isn�t it? "
This is the belief of Muslims. The truth of it I don't know.
".......Quran, a book with proved accuracy."   Can you clarify this ? So I can look at that for myself.
"The prophet of Islam was illiterate. Thus, he did not read any book (including NT or OT) nor did anybody train him."
What about oral tradition ? Hearing. Muhammad was a man deeply troubled by the society of his time, and his ponderings/musings about God's role in everything. Why he goes to the cave to contemplate - seeking answers. (That's the impression I have to date Myaha, though may be wrong. Am still learning.)  I am sure he asked questions of others long before he decided to head to the hills. He may have been illiterate, but he wasn't st**id, and I doubt very much if he were completely ignorant of what others believed or did not believe at that time. He would not have decided, wished to get rid of idols etc if he were not sure what these things meant - and that they were, for him, contradictory to a belief in one Creator.
 
Regarding signs etc. Jesus did say that it was an 'adulterous generation' that looked for 'signs and wonders'.
God bless
 
 
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honeto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 1:58pm
Ron,
you said: "The preservation of the Quran certainly shows the dedication and reverence of Muslims throughout history, but there is nothing miraculous about it.  There are plenty of ancient books, both orally transmitted and original manuscripts, that are as old or older."
 
But can any one of them prove to match the accuracy and agreement within its contents as in the case of the Quran?
 
Those who refuse to believe that Quran is God's word revealed to prophet Mohamed (pbuh) are left to believe that it is a miracle both in its contents and at its miticulous survival for fourteen centuries.
 
And if we are carefull in our thiking and with our words, we know that prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not claim to be anything more than a man, and a prophet. Thus, out of himself he could not perform any miracles. That leaves us with only the other choice, that the truth of the matter, that the Quran is from God. And just like, life is from God, is a miracle for us. So is the Quran, a word from God, a miracle.  
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 24 October 2008 at 2:13pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2008 at 7:52pm

Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

Hmmmmmmmmm. I did not say all people. But perhaps the hemisphere in semi or complete darkness. But you are correct. Unless people were actually looking - they'd have missed seeing the event.

Is it reasonable that out of the millions of people in the world, NONE of them happened to glance up at the moon?  Remember, these were pre-modern societies, before electric lighting or indoor plumbing or urban sprawl.  The moon was an important aspect of their lives -- their only source of outdoor light at night, their calendar, not to mention an object of beauty and wonder and sometimes even worship.  Nobody got up that night to walk to the biffy, and noticed that he was casting two shadows instead of one?  And having noticed, you don't think he would wake up the family, run to the neighbours, summon the wise men of the community to witness and interpret, or at least to document, this amazing event?

If there is a miracle here, it is that nobody outside of Muhammad's little band of followers seems to have observed it.



Edited by Ron Webb - 24 October 2008 at 7:55pm
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 October 2008 at 4:00am
What's a 'biffy' ?  lol  :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 October 2008 at 10:26am
Everyone,
 
Once again, let us stick to the thread please and comply with forum and section rules.
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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myahya View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2008 at 7:17am
Gulliver:
It still does not explain why we are still here, if the moon actually split.
You said if God exists, He can control the process. Thus, He can do it without generating any destruction on earth. Is it possible for God or not?
How do you know God prevents millions of tsunamis and earthquakes?
I do not know and I didn�t postulate this. You assumed the reversed; I said why not assuming like this?
If God prevents that many - then God should prevent them all. It's unfair and inconsistent. 
Judging without enough comprehensive knowledge is unfair. I think earthquakes and many other natural events are playing roles to make the general ecosystem reach a balance. If they had not been happened, human being might have been already extinct. Human lack of ability to predict some of these events can not prove unfairness for Allah s.w.t.
And why not the 'intellectual' people wiped out by the 'few'.
I did not mean a specific group of people by saying �intellectual�. All people have been blessed with intellect. All the natural and physical systems and events from an atom to star explosions are signs for God�s creation and anybody can use their intellect to understand if they would like to.

Nearly always the poor and starving in the world who are most often afflicted with these disasters.
Allah s.w.t. created human on the earth with the same blessings every where on it, with the same physical as well as cognitive abilities for human being. From God�s side blessings are equal. Now, tell us who is responsible for poverty, human or God?

Some would have claimed that 'God' punished certain people, mostly Muslims/Hindus with the tsunami, for not believing in Christ. Does Islam believe similarly. If there is a tsumami or hurricane or earthquake that hits a certain population - it's 'God's punishmnent' for whatever.
In Islam natural disasters are not necessarily God�s punishment. God�s punishment would be claimed by His messenger like the people of Lut in Quran.

Can you clarify this? So I can look at that for myself.

Historical and linguistic accuracy for example.

What about oral tradition? Hearing
I did not deny that he grew up in society and that he had hearings. However, what do you want to say with that? There is also a great deal of information in Quran which can not be found in OT, NT or other books/scriptures before it.

Muhammad was a man deeply troubled by the society of his time, and his ponderings/musings about God's role in everything. Why he goes to the cave to contemplate - seeking answers. \
I don�t know from where you have learned about Mohammad s.a.w.a. but these are wrong information. I (as a Muslim) do not believe that he was troubled by the society therefore he went to a silent place to meditate and concentrate and think deeply to find the answers and see what to do. This is the way a philosopher or a sociologist works in their office. A prophet is different from a philosopher, sociologist, theorist, historian, politician, and so on. He is the messenger of God. Mohammad s.a.w.a. was His slave and His messenger (selected by Him). Regardless of the �cave�, he knew he was the last prophet. The day he started introducing himself to others was the day that he had the mission form Allah s.w.t. to introduce himself otherwise he wouldn�t do that.
Regarding signs etc. Jesus did say that it was an 'adulterous generation' that looked for 'signs and wonders'.

What do you mean by �signs� here? Can you quote what Massih (as) said and clarify what he probably meant by �signs� and its relation with adultery?



Edited by myahya - 27 October 2008 at 7:21am
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2008 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

What's a 'biffy' ?  lol  :-)
Hmmm, I thought it was a common colloquialism, , but I guess not.  Let's just say if you get up for a walk in the middle of the night, that's probably where you're going. Wink 
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2008 at 4:53am
"Regarding signs etc. Jesus did say that it was an 'adulterous generation' that looked for 'signs and wonders'"
 
 
I had to check it Myaha. The scribes and pharisees are looking a sign from Jesus, some kind of 'proof'.
 
The reference is not to 'adultery' as with an umarried person with a married person. It's aduleration - something less than pure. Here perhaps - purity of faith, intent in the heart etc. Where there is true, pure faith - there is no need for vulgar displays of power. I think Jesus is saying that those seeking signs and wonders are more interested in signs and wonders than in truly knowing God for God Himself. The faith/service/love of God is not pure - it's adulterated.
 
33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

 34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

 35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

 36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

 37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.

 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 
__________________________________________________
 
"His favorite place for meditation was the Hira cave about three miles from Makkah. He would spend the entire month of Ramadan (the ninth month of the lunar calendar, and later the month during which Muslims were ordained to fast in order to practice abstinence and self-discipline to attain personal piety) meditating in this cave. This practice of meditating in seclusion, striving for wisdom and righteousness was common among the Arabs and was called "Tahannuf." The cave of Hira was where he received his initial revelation. However after he received the first revelation, which was in essence a call for action, the Prophet never went back to the cave."
 
 
Maybe I should have said he was a contemplative. I didn't mean it in a negative way. It's what draws anyone to that place of inner contemplation  - the 'holy place' where God meets us. Like Moses in the cave too.
 
________________________________ 
 
I did not deny that he grew up in society and that he had hearings. However, what do you want to say with that? There is also a great deal of information in Quran which can not be found in OT, NT or other books/scriptures before it.
 
Same could be said of the bible Myaha. But then there are all the claims of corruption to deal with, and the arguments and counter arguments on that issue.
 
What you're saying above is it's all a matter of faith. But the question is, faith in what - in whom. That's what I am trying to find out. 
 
_________________________________
 
This is a side track. In the bible it speaks of children looking to come to see Jesus. The disciples try and prevent the children getting close to him. Jesus says, "suffer the little children to come unto Me, for to such as these belongs the Kingom of Heaven."  I'd love to know what Jesus said to the children.  How was Muhammad with children ? Any records of anything he said to children ? :-)
 
God bless Myaha. I am sure we'll all find out one day.
 
 
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