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accepting a muslim household
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Points: 2033 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2010 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

It's a search for the truth, specifically the truth of fais's claim that Muhammad said that men should use a miswak to beat their wives.  I am confident that there is no such hadith.  It is an invention by Muslim apologists.

Are you enough of a scholar on Islam to know which texts/information/explanations fall under the category of "Inventions by Muslim Apologists" ? How do you know ?

Quote I have more than a thousand posts on this forum.  I have debated a great many issues with you and many other regulars.  I am disappointed that after all this time you would accuse me of "an attempt at smearing our faith".

Well Ron, while you seem to imply that you are here to understand, and  "search for truth" - sometimes it seems that you are debating for the sake of debating. Now and then you manage to slip in a pretty strong comment about Islam . . . which doesn't go along with your general mantra.

And this comment of yours was a rather strong allegation :

"No doubt there are good and bad people everywhere, but no other religion enables mistreatment of women, or subjugates them to men, like Islam."

You say "no doubt there are good and bad people everywhere"  . . . YET immediately point a finger at Islam ?!?! (and thus Muslims).

Also - "no other religion enables....like Islam" ! Wow, have you actually looked at other religions ? Throw in all the controversial stuff you can find and Islam still easily surpasses all of them ! in terms of treatment of women.

Quote

I am simply judging your faith by its own standards. 

No you are not . . . you usually judge our faith by your standards or the common western ones.


Quote You can make what you will of that, but it is the truth.  It is not a "smear".



There is no harm in having a genuine discussion, and discussing the "truth". But posting a statement like that in a thread where "wife-beating" or "domestic violence" wasn't even an issue, nor were we discussing treatment of women in Islam - does come under the category of a "smear". We were discussing the lady's specific circumstances . . .


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Points: 2033 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2010 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:



Islam is quite fascinating to me in that there is so, so much more going on. .

We are not in a "perfect" world. All people are weak. Some people have tempers. Yes they should control it, and sometimes they won't. They error. And in those cases, we should not push the buttons. Because the harm will come to me.

Men in the Quran and the Hadith are told to be kind to their wives. And the best of men are those who are the best to their wives. Alot of men do that.


Interesting points Sis. I agree, there is more to Islamic injunctions than what meets the eye. Sometimes when I dwell and read about certain things, I will suddenly have a "lightbulb moment" i.e. things seem to appear in a whole new light. You look at angles you never saw before . . . and here you were thinking you knew everything there was to know about an issue. I have realised that you cannot "know" everything about Islam, or understand everything at once . . . its a process and a journey. You learn as you go along, it never ends ! And you can never have a "perfect understanding" or "perfect answer" or "perfect explanation". Like with Polygyny for example - on first glance it may seem appalling, but then as you read into it, and dwell - it makes perfect sense.

Also, when you said "there is so much more going on" - it reminded me, that sometimes we get fixated on one particular hadith, or ayah, and forget the bigger picture. Whereas Islam is holistic ! We cannot pick on one verse or hadith and attempt to give explanations or conclusions. What about all the other ahadith and verses that supplement and complement it ??? So people will look at one Qur'anic verse and use it as an example of "wife-beating" . . . . yet forget the hundreds of other ahadith and verses that talk about gentleness to women. And when scholars explain such issues in light of all the other ahadith such as the one with the miswaak, etc etc, they are apologists !?!

Strangely, when you tell some people that what they think is not the case and its actually the opposite, it turns them off. Its like they just found out the tooth-fairy doesn't exist or Santa isn't real. Seems like the only way some non-Muslims will be happy or satisfied is to hear a Muslim say: "I am a muslim, and a wife-beater, because Islam says so" . . . . .


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2010 at 6:32pm

Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Are you enough of a scholar on Islam to know which texts/information/explanations fall under the category of "Inventions by Muslim Apologists" ? How do you know ?

I didn't say I know.  I said I am confident, which is the best I can say about a negative claim (the non-existence of something).  If you want to prove otherwise, just cite a credible reference.  But until someone does, I see no reason to believe that this apocryphal hadith actually exists.

Quote You say "no doubt there are good and bad people everywhere"  . . . YET immediately point a finger at Islam ?!?! (and thus Muslims).

No, not "and thus Muslims".  Most Muslims, like most Christians and most other faiths, manage to be good people despite their religions.  That was my point.

Quote There is no harm in having a genuine discussion, and discussing the "truth". But posting a statement like that in a thread where "wife-beating" or "domestic violence" wasn't even an issue, nor were we discussing treatment of women in Islam - does come under the category of a "smear". We were discussing the lady's specific circumstances . . .

If marie-london had chosen to accompany her husband to Saudi Arabia, wife-beating could very well have been an issue.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Ron
I think you are cunning as fox, hiding behind the humanism facade to keep throwing darts against the Islamic elements vis a vis other Euro religions!
You make an assumption like the way you made "Muhammad God's partner" thread...Now you injected this wife beating which happens but in your mind it does more so amongst Muslims...Again you assumed if marie had gone to Saudi wife beating could very well be issue...That tells me you are really having fun stabbing any opportunity is available to you!
Hence all of us here consider you as a member of Judeo Christian block while responding cuz you have lost the credibility by your underhanded actions!

I am still waiting for the response to the previous posts!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 27 July 2010 at 12:38am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by abuayisha abuayisha wrote:

Really?  So, what was this all about?  A search for the truth or fun and games?  Or maybe just an attempt at smearing our faith.

It's a search for the truth, specifically the truth of fais's claim that Muhammad said that men should use a miswak to beat their wives.  I am confident that there is no such hadith.  It is an invention by Muslim apologists.

I have more than a thousand posts on this forum.  I have debated a great many issues with you and many other regulars.  I am disappointed that after all this time you would accuse me of "an attempt at smearing our faith".  I am simply judging your faith by its own standards.  The Quran advises men to beat their wives, and several hadith show that Muhammad at least permitted it.  Muhammad himself struck Aisha hard enough to cause pain (see Sahih Muslim, 4:2127).  You can make what you will of that, but it is the truth.  It is not a "smear".

Quoting this as beating you need to get your head examined particularly when you don't have the original beside it! And what is this Muslim Jewish Engagement stuffWink


Edited by Sign*Reader - 27 July 2010 at 1:49am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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fais View Drop Down
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Dear Brother sign Reader

Just leave this guy alone,he is acting as if he is master in sience of hadith,there are so many things to learn of hadith and this can be learned only by a person who is seeking truth with an unbiased mind.

He is like those christian missioneries working in south part of india,they could not harm islam directly so they made different group where muslim boys studying in convent schools are given training that all relegion is useless just talk to god in the night.do not follow any rule just be a humanist and follow god without relegion.and beleive me brother they were able to misguide few muslim boys,i met such boys in saudi arabia working with me.
 
Ron:
I wanna understand one thing,the hadith about hitting with a miswak is good or bad according to you?cause your question asking authenticity of the hadith i mentioned shows that you accept that kind of behviour from a man who is betrayed by his wife.
 
tell me Ron:
what do you mean by A Hadith and how it is recorded,let me know how u understand islam.what is your parametre,just a few websites or you have a collection of sahih bukhari,sahih muslim,Abdawood,and tirmidhi.
tell me who are these people.
 
Just dont do quack quack like a duck repeating samething what you want.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

 But until someone does, I see no reason to believe that this apocryphal hadith actually exists.

As if you would actually believe it ?

Quote
Quote You say "no doubt there are good and bad people everywhere"  . . . YET immediately point a finger at Islam ?!?! (and thus Muslims).

No, not "and thus Muslims".  Most Muslims, like most Christians and most other faiths, manage to be good people despite their religions.  That was my point.

Well, when you talk about "Good & Bad people" and then talk about Islam,  you are bringing in Muslims. Islam is not a "person", If your point was that Muslims can be good people despite religion. . . then there was no need to bring in Islam at all. Unless you are equating Islam with its people.

Quote If marie-london had chosen to accompany her husband to Saudi Arabia, wife-beating could very well have been an issue.


Really ? So if she had lived with him in her own country, wife-beating would not be possible ? Moving to Saudi Arabia automatically makes wife-beating a possibility ? Wife-Beating can take place anywhere, even in non-Muslim countries. And men get away with it . . . . moving to Saudia Arabia does not increase the chances of wife-beating. If he is a good man, he will remain so in Saudia Arabia as well. And if he is a bad man, he can very well beat up his wife in the UK or USA.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Points: 5105 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 July 2010 at 7:40am
The "Bush doctrine" of pre-emptive self-defence against wife-beating.
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