Salaams Israfil,

I have just seen this post. Time is short for me today, but I'll return to this, as I would like to add some things of my own

"But you must understand for the past 6000 years of civilization, women have not been able to voice the problems and in much of the world they still cannot.  Even here in the "progressive" west, many women are forced into silence by their abusers and society."

So has people of color. So has the poor. So has many disadvantaged groups. I agree women have not been able to voice their views on the level of openness as men, but unlike you, I believe optimistically this trend is changing.

You may not like it, as I have said in numberous PMs recently, but the reality is still 1 in 3 women are victims of abuse in their lifetime here in the US.  The ratio worldwide is unknown.  1 in 5 boys are also victims of abuse in the US, and they go on to become abusers statistically.

In my original language I presuppse the idea NOT to generalize. Notice the above bold you are citing U.S. statistics which is fine but the tone of your comments are genrelizations of men globally. My point is since,  the basis of many of your arguments on men you seem to lump all men globally around the world yet you are citing U.S. statistics. If you are trying to support any arguments for such generalizations it is best you use the best reliable global information, not U.S. statistics.

"There are different degrees that a man can harm women in general.  These include economic oppression.  Our society has become dependent on working women.  Some men feel a woman is somehow lazy if she doesn't add a career onto her full hands and yet men rarely assist at home.  Even what you speak of as equality, isn't."

Angela this is a fallacy. Just because men want women to work is not oppressive. In some sectors of society both parents working is necessary, again this is more of an emotional statrement than a factual one. In Los Angeles the average salary to live decent between two working adults is $60k a year. I've said many times over I want my wife to work because I do not have the job or the resources to support myself, a wife, and my future kid(s). Until I can come into a better position in life I cannot afford a housewife. This has nothing to do with wanting to live lavish this is just reality in Los Angeles.

I certainly think its wrong of you to judge men on the basis of so-called economic oppression. Yes you cite statistics but they do nothing to advance your argument on economic oppression. The household duties are just as the man's responsibility as the woman's. The same thing can be said about children. Women do not have greater rights to children than men they are both the parent's responsibilities. Many times I've seen fathers bring their children into the local emergency rooms because their children is sick so there are men who are taking a greater parental role at home. Maybe its cultural. Maybe its change who knows?

As far as pornography is concerned I hardly constitute watching as oppressing the woman committing the pornographic act. One may support the activities by purchasing the pornographic material but I wouldn't say in the midst of watching it you are oppressing the woman actress. You would have to provide a better example on how this is so because this is totally an invalid inference.

Israfil,

I hear what you are saying. On the other hand I don't think that the womem say on this board "lump" all men together. Yes we discuss social issues as a whole. We discuss it because we can relate to it as we are women.

I myself think there are three categories..

1. The Piggish men. The Dirt. These are the men who have reprehensable attitudes and actions towards women. They belittle, demean and abuse women. They view women as nothing as the sum of their body parts or how they can best serve them. They are not a human being to be valued. but to be abused, objectified and subjugated. 

2. The Clueless men. The men who are generally "good guys" who dont think about things much. They are like my brothers and brother-in-laws who are good guys,  have a good life and don't necessarily question or think about the way society treats women.

3. The Amazing men. These are the men who are pro-active. They know the situation that women are in. We are more vulnerable. They value strong and empowered women and are not threatened by them. In Islam these are the men who truly, seek to follow the model of the Prophet in their sense on integrity and depth in their treatment of women and others who are vulnerable.   

Pornography. It is often hard for men to understand how watching porn is oppressing women. I understood Angela completely when she said it. If you regularly watch it, then yes, on one level you validate the industry and its ideas. Yes if you happen to see it in passing that is different.

You also viewed Angela as "judging" men. I don't look at her post at all. When she pointed out that men want women to "work" its not about wanting them to "work" to bring in money, but then also they should cook and clean for them. They should, even though exhausted with work and raising children, then want to be waited on or not be expected to also then carry 50% of the load.  

And them wanting them to work is tied into this view that "working" at home with house maintaining and child care is not "work" that is the point. They belittle the child raising which is usually women's domain so to speak.

On one hand you talk about that we personalize our experiences and yet you don't want us to generalize with the statistics that, for example, Angela gave. You want us to not "judge" all men, lump them together and yet also, not speak from personal experience.. what do you want?

All of us post from personal experience. You did that when you gave an examle of "living in LA," expense etc. So this is your reason for saying men are are not "economically oppressing women." as you did write: The weakness of informative discussions is the reality that there will be at least one individual stating valid claims based on individual experience.

I really think self-righteous women should shed the egotistical behavior and really look at the beauty in both sexes.

As far as disucssion, can you give an example and a context? I  feel you posted this for a reason and I am confused as to why. Itsounds like you are on a "Pro-feminist" board where alls they do is complain about those "terrible men".  I studies tons of this stuff in college. I know all about this segment of society. And no one on this board has come across this way to me.

okay os you wanty people to clarify their language? Say  for instance

"Some men are like...."

"Some women are like..."

Inthis case you should post under a General discussion about the use of language by all people. I find women no more generalizers then men. Just in general. Also, some people are "words" types of people. They are more lingusitically adept. Language, I agree, has a powerful effect. Considering we are from all places in the world.. most people do pretty good!

Whne you post it here you are saying that women are the ones to do this, lump all men together. I think people lump all over the place!