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Judaism and Islam

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howard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Judaism and Islam
    Posted: 28 September 2005 at 4:53pm
What for Muslims are the fundamental
THEOLOGICAL differences between Judaism and
Islam? We know what the theological differences are
between Christianity and Judaism and between
Christianity and Islam. In fact, both Judaism and
Islam reject Christianity for IDENTICAL reasons as
both religions maintain that God cannot have a Son
and that the notion of the Trinity contradicts the
essential Oneness of God.

Of course I know that Muslims consider that the
Jews 'tampered with their Scriptures' and that they
castigate Jews for not recognising Jesus and
Mohammed as Prophets. But in the Bible itself the
Jews want to kill Jesus for the blasphemy of
claiming that he is the Son of God - surely what was
blasphemy for the Jews would also have been
blasphemy for Muslims. Again, not acknowledging
Mohammed as a prophet does not consitute a
THEOLOGICAL difference between Judaism and
Islam. The fact that Judaism does not recognise
Mohammed does not mean that the Jews are not
rigourours monotheists, prohibiting graven images -
synagogues like mosques are only decorated with
writings from holy scriptures -there are no statues or
paintings in them as you find in churches.

So what's the difference?

PS. I am not a Jew!
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Khaledee View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Khaledee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2005 at 6:52pm

although both worship one god but The differ in prophets that make Islam and Judaism very much diverse . While Muslims easily recognised openly the three great prophets Moses , Jesus and Muhammad Pbuh ,  sadly , jews didnot recognised in both and  rejected both as prophets , , not only rejecting them , jews were hostile to both prophets in the beginning of thier missions and continued to the current day and age .

That is very fundamental and central for a start before looking deep into discussion of similarity of both monotheists Islam and Judasim .  If this is central of part of the three prophets is absent , there are no hope for the jews to reconcile with the muslims . Muslims did reconcile with Judaism as they Love moses as thier own prophet . Muslims always speak about great moses against king Phoraoh but remained muslims , but it is left to the jews to make that great move!

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howard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2005 at 3:20am
Originally posted by Khaledee Khaledee wrote:

although both worship one
god but The differ in prophets that make Islam and
Judaism very much diverse . While Muslims easily
recognised openly the three great prophets Moses ,
Jesus and Muhammad Pbuh ,� sadly , jews didnot
recognised�in both�and �rejected both�as prophets , ,
not only rejecting them , jews were hostile to both
prophets in the beginning of thier missions and
continued to the current day and age .


That is very fundamental and central�for a
start�before looking deep into discussion of similarity
of both monotheists Islam and Judasim . �If this is
central of�part of the three prophets is absent , there
are no hope for the jews to reconcile with the
muslims . Muslims did reconcile with Judaism as
they Love moses as thier own prophet . Muslims
always speak about great moses against king
Phoraoh but remained muslims , but it is left to the
jews to make that great move!



Hello Khaladee,

But what you mention does not constitute a
THEOLOGICAL difference. The fact of
not recognising as prophets Jesus and Mohammed
does NOT constitute a theological difference. What
did Mohammed say about the Oneness of God that
Jews would have disagreed with? What did
Mohammed say about idolatry that Jews would have
disagreed with? What did Mohammed say about
polytheism that Jews would have disagreed with?

The only book that tells us the CONTENT of the
message of Jesus to the Jews is the Bible. The
Koran gives us absolutely no notion at all of the
CONTENT of the message of Jesus/Isa to the Jews
(unlike what the Koran writes about Moses and the
Hebrews). In the Bible the Jews condemn Jesus to
death on the grounds that he maintains that he is the
Son of God. Muslims would have done exactly the
same! So the reasons for the opposition of Judaism
and Islam to Christianity are IDENTICAL!

Quote There is no such thing as a plurality of
persons in the Godhead. We introduce a plurality
when we use the word 'persons'. Anyone who
pictures 3 different persons in their minds and then
say with their mouths that they are really one cannot
help but be confused. They say one thing but are
actually thinking another. Anyone with such an
understanding of the Godhead are polytheistic in
their thinking regardless that they may say that God
is one in order to align their verbal confession with
the Bible.
It is important to begin the Shema with a declaration
of the Oneness of God because it is only possible to
give the love of all our heart, soul, mind and strength
to One. It is not humanly possible to do so for 3 or
more. This only leads to confusion. Our God is not
the author of confusion. He never changes(Malachi
3:6) . He is still One now as He was One then.


This is from a JEWISH website. What is there in it
that Muslims would disagree with on THEOLOGICAL
grounds? As far as I can tell NOTHING!


Edited by howard
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2005 at 2:30pm
Howard I agree there is no theological difference between
Judaism and Islam. Both religions are of the Abrahamic
tradition and both have the fundamental principle of the "One of
God" in that there is no difference the only difference you may
find are religious and historical differences. As for the comment
made in regards o Jesus I don't think Muslims would kill their
prophets especially if the knowledge of God had come to a
man and whose signs were clear. This is the religious
distinction. The Jews in Jesus' time knew of the miracles he
had performed and yes they assumed he blasphemied against
God by claiming that he is the Son of God, but then again we
must do not accept this part of the bible anyway.
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howard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2005 at 3:29pm
Israfil, hello

What I find interesting is that in the Koran we can
read much about the actual relationship that Moses
had with the Hebrews of his time. There are
passages in the Quran where Moses/Musa upbraids
the Jews for not following God's laws. On the other
hand there is a COMPLETE ABSENCE in the Koran
of what Isa's message was to the Jews of HIS time.
The Quran speaks about Isa's childhood and his
death but NOTHING about the content of his
message, NOTHING about the content of the Injil
that was supposedly revealed to him. Do Muslims
claim that the Jews of Isa's time were tempted by
idolatry and polytheism as they were in Moses time'?
What did Isa tell the Jews about the Oneness of God
that they didn't know already? The Koran remains
strangely silent on such crucial questions and it is
one of the reasons why it is not so much the Injil that
should be suspected of 'distorting the truth' but the
Koran itself.

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2005 at 4:43pm
Howard I suspect you may have not read the qur'an entirely or
at least in some depth the following are brief passages of some
sayings of Jesus:

[43.63] And when Isa came with clear arguments he said: I
have come to you indeed with wisdom, and that I may make
clear to you part of what you differ in; so be careful of (your duty
to) Allah and obey me:

[61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel!
surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is
before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle
who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he
came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear
magic.

[61.14] O you who believe! be helpers (in the cause) of Allah,
as~ Isa son of Marium said to (his) disciples: Who are my
helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We are
helpers (in the cause) of Allah. So a party of the children of
Israel believed and another party disbelieved; then We aided
those who believed against their enemy, and they became
uppermost.

[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you
say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah
he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say
what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed
have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not
know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of
the unseen things.

43:63. When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have
I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you
some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah
and obey me.

Surah AS-SAFF chapter number 61 verse number 6
"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of
Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the
Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a
Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad."
But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is
evident sorcery!" "

Howard the qur'an clearly denies the death of Jesus here:

4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa
son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor
did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and
most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it;
they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a
conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Allah says here that rather he ascended to Empyrean

[3.55] And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the
period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me
and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who
follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of
resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide
between you concerning that in which you differed.

Howard you have to understand that the Qur'an does not in
detail discuss the particulars of the Gospels nor the Torah but
rather their central messages. Not all Jews practiced
monotheism as we see that Jews we in fact captive as well as
inhabitants in the Roman empire at one point as we see in the
times of Jesus. There were some who left the orthodox aspect
of judaism to adopt pagan monotheism in the Roman empire,
adopting certain philosophical principles that philosophers
such as Plato held. Or as the heterodoxical tales of Lilth added
to Jewish legend.

All these things summed up the reason why God sends his
prophets at specific times. As the Qur'an notes about the injeel
(Gospel) o my assumption the Injeel is a supplimental text
which confirms the Torah also adding additions to the Law it's
specific are unknown to me.

"And in their footsteps We sent Jesus, the Son of Mary,
confirming the law that had come before him. We gave him the
Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the
law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition
to those who fear Allah." 5/46.

Another saying of Jesus:

"I am indeed a servant of Allah, He gave me the Book and
made me a prophet." 19/32

Here are some things you may find that are mentioned in the
Injeel and Torah but only briefly:

"The similitude of the companions of the Prophet Muhammed�
in the Injeel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then
makes it strong, it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own
stem, feeling the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result it
fills the unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised
those amongst them who believe and do righteous deeds,
forgiveness and a great reward." 48/29

"My mercy is extended to all things. That mercy I shall ordain for
those who do right and pay zakat and those who believe in our
signs. Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet,
who they find mentioned in their own scriptures, the Torah and
Injeel."

"We sent him the Injeel, therein was guidance and light and
confirmation of the Torah that had come before him. A
guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah." 5/46.


Finally we come to the end of what you mentioned regarding
he sayings of Jesus and whether there was something in
addition to what Jews already knew. The main theme of Jesus
like tht of Muhammad wa the reaffirmation of the Oneness of
God. Because of cultural influence in those societies it is not
uncommon to assume nor to find in the history of the Jews and
Christians that the loss of monotheism was evident. I hope this
helps.







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howard View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote howard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2005 at 12:17pm
Israfil,

The quotes you have given above say nothing about
the content of the Injil. Are these supposed quotes
part of the Injil? Or are they 'ahadeeth'? Which Jews
in Israel were practising polytheism? Jews were
divided into sects at the time of Jesus (Essenes,
Pharisees, Saducees) but there is no historical
record of Jews ever having practiced anything but the
strictest monotheism in Israel itself. Their own
Scriptures warned them insistently and vehemently
of the error of slipping into polytheism.

What were the clear signs that Isa presented to the
Jews? Again, we have no precise details from the
Quran. What were the miracles Isa performed as an
adult? The same miracles as are related in the NT
or other miracles? Did Isa write the Injil? Did his
disciples write it? What became of it? Why did Allah
reveal a Kitab to Isa if it were not going to survive for
even a century? Why did Allah let so many people be
DELUDED into thinking that Isa had been crucified?

Finally as I've asked on another thread, why did Allah
in the Quran give the name Injil (derived from the
Greek) to the Kitab that was revealed to Isa?
According to Muslims was Isa's mother tongue
Greek?
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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2005 at 2:11pm
Though I leave the rest of your post for brother Israfil to respond as it is nothing but rudimentary in nature, however, concerning your assertion about word "Injeel" being derived from Greek, kindly go back to the same thread and you shall find the appropriate response to it.
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