Let us discuss something different.

bmzsp wrote: How about Isaiah 53? Please note that I am quoting off my memory, so words may not be the same as those in the text. Pardon me for that. Isaiah 53, according to the Jewish Tanakh (Jewish Bible), talks about "The young woman shall give birth to a child who will be named Immanuel." The Old Testament followed by the Christians says, "The virgin shall give birth to a child.........." The source of the above statement fondly called a prophecy is the Jewish Bible, the Jewish Tanakh but it is not the Christian OT. Also, the child was never named Immanuel. Any comments from our learned Christian friends? Why does the statement differ in the two Bibles? Note that the Jews do not accept the OT of Christians and do not even read that. Best Regards & Salaams to all BMZ

This is Isaiah 53 from the Hebrew Scriptures:

1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.

3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.

9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:

11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

This particular Chapter was almost unamimously considered Messianic in first century Judaism.  You will find that Jews today deny this and consider this Chapter to refer to the  nation of Israel, but there are reasons why this cannot be.

This particular Chapter has brought many, many Jews to believe that Jesus was, indeed, their Messiah, their King Messiah.

This is the same Chapter that the Jews translated from the Greek:

Isaiah 53

 1 Who has believed our report?
      And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
       2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
      And as a root out of dry ground.
      He has no form or comeliness;
      And when we see Him,
      There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
       3 He is despised and rejected by men,
      A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
      And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
      He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
       4 Surely He has borne our griefs
      And carried our sorrows;
      Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
      Smitten by God, and afflicted.
       5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
      He was bruised for our iniquities;
      The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
      And by His stripes we are healed.
       6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
      We have turned, every one, to his own way;
      And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
       7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
      Yet He opened not His mouth;
      He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
      And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
      So He opened not His mouth.
       8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
      And who will declare His generation?
      For He was cut off from the land of the living;
      For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
       9 And they made His grave with the wicked�
      But with the rich at His death,
      Because He had done no violence,
      Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
       10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
      He has put Him to grief.

      When You make His soul an offering for sin,
      He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
      And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
       11 He shall see the labor of His soul,and be satisfied.
      By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
      For He shall bear their iniquities.
       12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
      And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
      Because He poured out His soul unto death,
      And He was numbered with the transgressors,
      And He bore the sin of many,
      And made intercession for the transgressors.

Where is the part about the virgin?

bmzsp wrote: I am sorry for the mistake but you could have found out easily what I was referring to!. Please read Isaiah 7:14 in the Jewish scripture and then read Isaiah 7:14 in the OT of the Christian Bible. Hope to hear from you as to why the changes were made to the Jewish text which was there far before even the Christian Bible was compiled. BR BMZ

Yes, I knew perfectly well which verse you were referring to. lol

The Jewish Scriptures translated from the Greek were translated by Jews.  Do you think they made a mistake translating their own scriptures?

Am I mistaken?  I thought that Muslims believed that Jesus was born of a virgin?  Are you denying that?

Since you brought Isaiah 53 up.  What do you think about what I said about this Chapter?

This particular Chapter was almost unamimously considered Messianic in first century Judaism.  You will find that Jews today deny this and consider this Chapter to refer to the  nation of Israel, but there are reasons why this cannot be.

This particular Chapter has brought many, many Jews to believe that Jesus was, indeed, their Messiah, their King Messiah.


Edited by Katherine

bmzsp wrote: Katherine, From you:"The Jewish Scriptures translated from the Greek were translated by Jews.  Do you think they made a mistake translating their own scriptures?" BMZ: Katherine, The Jewish scriptures were originally in Hebrew and Greek was not spoken in the time of Moses and Abraham. From you: "Am I mistaken?  I thought that Muslims believed that Jesus was born of a virgin?  Are you denying that?" BMZ: You have not answered my post. Muslims believe 100% that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. My post has a different query. The Jews, from whose Book was the Christian OT copied or compiled, used the term 'young woman' of Isaiah's family. They did not use and do not use the term 'virgin girl or the virgin'. The young woman they refer to is a married lady of Isaiah's family. And why was Jesus not named Immanuel, if it were commanded? I think the Jews should have more knowledge about their scripture than the Christians who borrowed it from the Jews. I cannot accept that God's words were given to Moses and Jesus in Greek. From you: "Since you brought Isaiah 53 up.  What do you think about what I said about this Chapter?" I will look into that later. BR BMZ

Maybe this article will help you:

http://www.lightofmashiach.org/almah.html

Quoting the article:

Probably one of the strongest argument for almah meaning "virgin" is that when the 70 rabbis translated the Septuagint (around 2nd century BCE) they translated almah as parthenos ("virgin" in Greek). There were perfectly good Greek words for young woman, but note, the rabbis chose the word for "virgin. So if modern Judaism wants to debunk almah by saying it can't mean virgin, we see this is newer thinking (not even popularized yet in Rashi's day) and that previously almah was understood to mean "virgin" -- even in Isaiah 7:14.

Does this help you?

Thanks, Katherine.

I have three Christian Bibles and a Jewish Scripture at home. I have discussed with Rabbis who confirm that the Christian OT has wrongly translated the word almah into "Virgin".

Do you happen to know what is the true Hebrew word for Virgin?

BR

BMZ