Who is the Holy Spirit? |
Post Reply | Page 123 6> |
Author | |
George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 24 April 2006 at 10:32am |
Who is the Holy Spirit? I would like to present my topic is steps. First looking at the Muslim view and then moving on to the Jewish and Christian view. The first step/question: "according to the Koran and Hadiths, who is the Holy Spirit?" My Muslim friends tell me that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit. I believe that there is a distinction made between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit in the Koran and the Hadiths. This is what I have found:
"Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: �I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.�" S. 15:28-29 "He Who created all things in the best, and He began the creation of man from clay, And made his progeny from a quintessence of despised fluid: But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and understanding: little thanks do ye give!" S. 32:7-9 "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: �I am about to create man from clay: When I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.�" S. 38:71-72 These passages indicate that after fashioning man God presumably gave him life by breathing his Spirit into him, echoing Genesis 2:7. This implies that at least in these contexts the Spirit is God�s life-giving Agent. This being the case, how can the Spirit be Gabriel without this implying that God used a finite creature to assist him in the creation of man? "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." 21:91 "And Mary the daughter of �mr�n, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into it of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants)." S. 66:12 God�s Spirit appeared to Mary in the form of a man: "And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man." S. 19:17 These passages indicate that the Spirit is not a force but a divine personality. The context of this last passage shows that the Spirit which visibly appeared is actually the very same Spirit referred to in 21:91 and 66:12: "She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil). He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I WILL GIVE YOU a pure boy." S. 19:18-19 Shakir The Spirit says that he has come to GIVE Mary a son, implying that this is the one whom Allah breathed into Mary in order to create Jesus. Yet according to certain Muslim commentators this Spirit who both appeared to Mary and was breathed into her was Gabriel. Ibn Kathir comments on S. 66:12, noting that Jibril is the Arabic pronunciation of Gabriel: <And Maryam, the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity (PRIVATE PART).> meaning who protected and purified her honor, by being chaste and free of immorality, <And We breathed INTO IT (PRIVATE PART) through Our Ruh,> meaning, THROUGH THE ANGEL JIBRIL. Allah sent the angel Jibril to Maryam, and he came to her in the shape of a man in every respect. Allah commanded HIM TO BLOW INTO A GAP OF HER GARMENT and that BREATH into her womb through her private part; THIS IS HOW �ISA WAS CONCEIVED. This is why Allah said here, <And We breathed INTO IT through Our Ruh, and she testified to the truth of her Lords Kalimat, and His Kutub,> meaning His decree and His legislation. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Abridged, Volume 10, Surat At-Tagabun to the end of the Qur'an, abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, London, Lahore; September 2000], pp. 75-76;) Al-Tabari�s comments on Mary�s conception are: "... She entered the cave, and found Gabriel there�God made him appear to her as shapely human�and he said to her, �O Mary, God has sent me to you to give you a boy most pure.� At this she exclaimed, �I take refuge in the All Merciful from you, if you fear God!� (She had thought that he was a man, a mortal.) But he said, �I am but a messenger come from your Lord.� She then said, �How shall I, whom no mortal has touched, have a son; neither have I been unchaste?� He replied, �Even so. The Lord has said, "Easy is that for Me, and We may appoint him a sign unto men and a mercy from Us; it is a thing decreed."� That is, God has decreed that it is so. When the angel spoke thus, she submitted to the divine decree, and he breathed into HER BOSOM. Then he left her, and she filled her pitcher. According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. �Askar al-Bukhari- Isma�il b. �Abd al-Karim- �Abd al-Samad b. Ma�qil, the son of the brother of Wahb- Wahb: When God sent Gabriel to Mary, he appeared to her as a shapely man. She then said, �I take refuge in the All Merciful from you, if you fear God!� Then he breathed into the opening of her garment, THE BREATH REACHED HER WOMB, and she conceived Jesus..." (The History of al-Tabari, Volume IV, The Ancient Kingdoms, trans. Moshe Perlmann [State University of New York Press, Albany, 1987], pp. 112-113;) And: "� �Then We sent unto her Our Spirit [that is, the angel Gabriel] that presented himself to her a man without fault�... She wore a gown. He held her sleeves and breathed into the opening of her garment which was split in front. The breath entered her breast, and she conceived ..." (Ibid., p. 119;) The claim that Gabriel breathed into Mary would logically make Gabriel the speaker in S. 21:91 and 66:12. According to these passages the One speaking states that he will breathe his Spirit into Mary. Nowhere do the passages even hint to someone else being used to impregnate Mary. Seeing that Muslims claim that the Koran is the word of Allah, implying that Allah is the One speaking here, logically makes Gabriel Allah! This also means that Gabriel has a Spirit that he uses to create and impart life. This would therefore make Gabriel the Creator, since Muslims claim that Allah was the one who created Jesus by breathing his Spirit into Mary�s womb. Otherwise the text would imply that Allah actually breathed Gabriel into both Mary and Adam since, as Muslims claim, the Spirit of Allah is actually Gabriel.
Furthermore, seeing that Muslims do not equate Gabriel with Allah inevitably leads to more than one Creator. Yet the Koran clearly states that there is no other Creator besides Allah: "It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her (in love). When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about (unnoticed). When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, (saying): �If Thou givest us a goodly child, we vow we shall (ever) be grateful.� But when He giveth them a goodly child, they ascribe to others a share in the gift they have received: but Allah is exalted high above the partners they ascribe to Him. Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?" S. 7:189-191 "O men! Remember the grace of Allah unto you! Is there a Creator, other than Allah, to give you sustenance from heaven or earth? There is no god but He: how then are ye perverted?" S. 35:3 "He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate; and He sent down for you eight head of cattle in pairs: He creates you, in the wombs of your mothers, in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness. Such is Allah, your Lord and Cherisher: to Him belongs (all) dominion. There is no god but He: then how are ye turned away (from your true Lord)?" S. 39:6 Therefore, the only plausible explanation is that the Spirit of Allah is not the angel Gabriel. Another verse supplying additional proof that the Spirit is not Gabriel is the following: "Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve Felicity." S. 58:22 Y. Ali Believers are strengthened by a spirit from Himself, i.e. a spirit from God. In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God. This is precisely the conclusion that one Muslim scholar comes to. In his footnote, A. Yusuf Ali states: "Cf. ii 87 and 253, where it is said that God strengthened the Prophet Jesus with the holy spirit. Here we learn that all good and righteous men are strengthened by God with the holy spirit. If anything, the phrase used here is stronger, �a spirit from Himself�. Whenever any one offers his heart in faith and purity to God, God accepts it, engraves that faith on the seeker's heart, and further fortifies him with the Divine Spirit, which we can no more define adequately than we can define in human language the nature of God." (Ali, The Meaning of the Holy Quran, p. 1518, f. 5365) Yusuf Ali isn't alone. Shia writer Irshaad Hussain, in his The Soul: Between Spirit and Clay, says in regards to God's Spirit which was breathed into Adam: The Spirit, which derives from God, IS A REALITY THAT POSSESSES ALL THE DIVINE ATTRIBUTES. IT REPRESENTS A DIRECT MANIFESTATION OF GOD. Remember, it is only after this Spirit is breathed into Adam that God orders the angels to prostrate themselves before Adam. It is only after this receiving of the Spirit that Adam is given knowledge of the names of all things. The Spirit then MANIFESTS in some way THE ATTRIBUTES OR NAMES OF GOD. It is luminous, alive, subtle, unseen, knowing, unified etc. The body on the other hand has many parts and is overcome by darkness, ignorance, inanimate matter, and a lack of divine attributes. So spirit and body have no common measure - One is from God who is Unique, who is One. The other is from the material world which is characterized by multiplicity and dispersion. Source: http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/beliefs/the-soul-betwe en-spirit-and-clay/the-soul-between-spirit-and-clay.htm We see that the Spirit is of the divine essence, incomprehensible, omnipresent, personal, and the source of Life, qualities belonging to God alone. These qualities clearly show that the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Faithful Spirit cannot be the angel Gabriel since Gabriel is neither omnipresent nor divine.
Second, both the Koran and hadiths clearly demonstrate that the Holy Spirit is not Gabriel. For instance, there is not a single verse in the entire Koran which states that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit or the Faithful Spirit, or even God�s Spirit. Here are all the references to Gabriel in the Quran: Say (O Muhammad, to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture) to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers; Who is an enemy to Allah, and His angels and His messengers, and Gabriel and Michael! Then, lo! Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers. S. 2:97-98 "If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers." S. 66:4 Here are some additional references to the Spirit: "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?�Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" S. 2:87 "Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan." S. 2:253 "When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the Holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment." S. 5:110 "Say: The Holy Spirit has revealed it from your Lord with the truth, that it may establish those who believe and as a guidance and good news for those who submit." S. 16:102 "And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Faithful Spirit has descended with it," S. 26:192-193 "The Exalter of Ranks, the Lord of the Throne. He causeth the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting," S. 40:15 "(Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." S. 70:4 "The Day that the Spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (God) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right." S. 78:38 "The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." S. 97:4 The last three passages make a distinction between the angels (of which Gabriel is obviously one) with the Spirit. This again implicitly supports our position that Gabriel is not the Spirit. Had the Spirit been Gabriel there would be no need to distinguish him from the angels. Additionally, there are two hadiths from Sahih Muslim affirming that the Spirit is not Gabriel: "Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." (Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Number 0987) Again, in agreement with the Quran, this tradition distinguishes between Angels and the Spirit. This strongly suggests that Gabriel is not the Holy Spirit. "... Aisha said: I heard Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) saying to Hassan: Verily Ruh al-Qudus (The Holy Spirit) will continue to help you so long as you put up a defense on behalf of Allah and his Messenger... ... and Gabriel, the Apostle of Allah is among us, and the Holy Spirit who has no match." (Sahih Muslim, Book 30, Number 6081) This hadith distinguishes clearly between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit, affirming that they are not one and the same entity. The preceding factors clearly demonstrate that the Koran provides no substantiation for the claim that "Holy Spirit" is an attributive noun used for Gabriel. In fact, a case has been made that the Koran clearly distinguishes the Holy Spirit from the angel Gabriel. Shall we talk about this? Please keep in mind that at this point we are only concerned with the Koran and the position of Muslims. After this discussion I will proceed to bring forth the position of the Christians and the Jews. I'm hoping to find some common ground. |
|
fredifreeloader
Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 456 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
george - you contributions so far have been excellent, if at times on the lengthy side. this is far too long. bite size snippets please. some of us have too short an attention span and too little time to digest
|
|
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
|
|
George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I know some of them are long, Fred, but the best way to get a point across is to draw a picture. I will try in the future to limit the size if I am able to do so. :) |
|
BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
fredi, George has a habit of copying and pasting too much, far more in excess. He puts me off with his long posts but I do try to respond to the relevant part and leave the rest unanswerd. Well, that gives you an answer too. Now to George. Here is a quick reply: George, From you: Your question: Who is the Holy Spirit? Answer: Gabriel and nobodyelse! Your Muslim friends are correct. From you: "I believe that there is a distinction made between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit in the Koran and the Hadiths. "
Answer: There is no distinction between Gabriel and the Holy Spirit in Qur'aan. The Holy Spirit is Gabriel's title in Qur'aan.
You quoted: "Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: �I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud molded into shape; When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.�" S. 15:28-29"
It is so simple to understand. "God breathed into him of His Spirit" does not mean that God caught hold of the Holy Spirit as if it was standing by near and forced the Spirit down Adam's throat. It simply means that God gave him life. That is how we unnderstand. Got it, George? In other words, you hav enot been able to get the message of Genesis right. It's all about knowing the style of delivery of the Semitic languages, George. You quoted: "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples." 21:91" Answer: This simply confirms that God gave life to Jesus in his mother Maryam's womb. From you: "God�s Spirit appeared to Mary in the form of a man" A question: Was this the same Spirit that was breathed into her, according to your statement? If you read what you have written here, then you will realise that this Spirit and the one that was breathed into her ARE NOT the same. A divine personality cannot be blown into any vagina, George. God did not breathe into her vagina, the private part, through any Spirit at all, George. God gave life and soul to what was in her womb. Your problem is that you are trying your best to find a Triune God in Qur'aan! Sorry, mate! There is no such God there. You quoted:"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?�Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!" S. 2:87" You are wrongly translating Ruhul-Quds into Holy Spirit. Ruhul-Quds means a noble and a pure soul, like most of the noble prophets of God. You have a long way to go to understand Arabic. I do not wish to comment on the remaining stuff which is not worth my time. Edited by bmzsp |
|
superme
Senior Member Joined: 03 April 2006 Location: Cocos (Keeling) Islands Status: Offline Points: 463 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I have a short writing in the HD somewhere that I wrote few years ago about spirit but I am a bit busy now. In the mean time George can you tell me about Gabriel a bit of what you know for comparison.
|
|
George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Please see this article: http://www.jhom.com/topics/angels/talmud_fourangels.htm Angels are messengers. |
|
George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
So BMZ, you are saying that God does not have a spirit. Correct? Because if you are, then Islamic theology differs from Christian and Judaism's theology. The Spirit of God, or God's Holy Spirit is God.
|
|
BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
George, From you: "Angels are messengers." I read the link that you provided and it considers Michael to be more powerful than Gabriel. Why was Michael "the most powerful" of the four not sent to Mary and Zechariah? You know well that Gabriel always stood, and stands in the presence of God. |
|
Post Reply | Page 123 6> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |