Are "the" or "some" Jews Cursed? |
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Servetus
Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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Posted: 22 May 2006 at 9:02am |
Does this apparent perpetual and multi-generational �curse� (at least as it has been interpreted at times viciously throughout history) apply to {keyword} �the� disbelieving Jews and their ancestors, �children,� in toto? Or, as post-modernist exegetes and others would have it, does it only apply to �some� Jews �for instance, to those who were present at the time in Jerusalem? Does the Bible itself specify? Must we try to understand it on our own? Did (and do) �some� or �all� Jews say? Couldn�t the New Testament writers, speakers of that capable language, Greek, make it clearer? (Matt 27:20-24) �But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed. "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor. "Barabbas," they answered. "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!" "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!" When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children! [bold emphasis added]� Serv |
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BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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Hi Servie, Another good question: "Does this apparent perpetual and multi-generational �curse� (at least as it has been interpreted at times viciously throughout history) apply to {keyword} �the� disbelieving Jews and their ancestors, �children,� in toto? Or, as post-modernist exegetes and others would have it, does it only apply to �some� Jews �for instance, to those who were present at the time in Jerusalem? Does the Bible itself specify? Must we try to understand it on our own? Did (and do) �some� or �all� Jews say? Couldn�t the New Testament writers, speakers of that capable language, Greek, make it clearer?" Yes, Yahweh (YHVH) had already made that clear in the Holy Bible that he is a jealous God and punishes children of a father upto the fourth generation. Naturally each father of a generation made mistakes or committed sins, so the punsihment of children became like a perpetual curse that extends to all generations. (Matt 27:20-24) �But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed. "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" asked the governor. "Barabbas," they answered. "What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?" Pilate asked. They all answered, "Crucify him!" "Why? What crime has he committed?" asked Pilate. But they shouted all the louder, "Crucify him!" When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!" All the people answered, "Let his blood be on us and on our children! [bold emphasis added]� Like I wrote above, they were prepared in this case for above as per bold emphasis from you. The above statement from Matthew is good for the topic of crucifiction. Notice the Jews ask for the release of a notorious bandit and a murderer who killed the Jews and robbed their own. Pilate obliged. Note that Jesus was also good at transfiguration. According to one gospel writer's accounts when people came to arrest Jesus, they fell down when Judas went to point out Jesus to them, as if no one knew Jesus. Must have been some kind of shock!!! Looks like the Jews and Romans were making each other look real bad. Just a thought for the other topic. Edited by bmzsp |
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George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
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Serv, You said in another topic that you go with what the Jews say. The Jews say that Ezra was never called the "son of God." We have to remember that in the Qur'an Allah is talking, not a man. My question has always been does the Arabic in that Surah support the translation of "some." My expert in the Arabic language says, no it does not. Shalom |
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Servetus
Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109 |
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George (you are quoted below in blue), �You [Serv] said in another topic that you go with what the Jews say.� Please allow me to clarify. You are referring to this, I think? �But still, in future, when speaking of the three religions, and especially when comparing and contrasting them, I [Servetus] will continue to quote Jews who represent Judaism � when I want to understand especially Orthodox Judaism�s response to Christianity and to Islam. [bold emphasis added]� �The Jews say that Ezra was never called the "son of God."� First, and with all due respect, I would say how do they know? Maybe, as Andalus, BMZ and (I think) others have suggested, there were groups of diaspora Jews in Arabia who were saying exactly that and with no Josephus nearby to record it. Have you (and others) considered that (and Muslims please note here that I am not trying to exercise ijtihad), if there were diaspora groups of Jews saying this, perhaps the Quranic �curse� applied only to them? And that, for that matter, if and when they were to stop �saying� that, the curse, too, might no longer apply? I certainly do not know. I am not meaning to be disrespectful here nor am I meaning to put you in ignoble company, but why, I wonder, this marked tendency (not on your part, just in general) to strain at Quranic gnats while swallowing Biblical camels? By way of analogy, and as it is written, does this above �curse� from the Gospel of Matthew, for example, which has had very real and palpable historical repercussions throughout Christendom and certainly Jewry, apply to some or to all (disbelieving) Jews, local or global, then or now? (The question is somewhat rhetorical and does not need to be answered. I raise it primarily for consideration, or as a case in point.) Likewise, it was suggested in another thread that there may have been groups of �Collyridian� (thanks, Fredi) Christians whose worship, or veneration of Mary was tantamount to deification and to whom such ayats as 5:116 more clearly and absolutely applied. Plausible rule of thumb: if any Quranic injunction, or cease and desist order, doesn�t sound like something one (or one's friends) are doing or saying, it might not apply to one (or them). �We have to remember that in the Qur'an Allah is talking, not a man.� Point noted. For that matter, perhaps we should try to hear it a little more clearly (not saying or implying that you are not trying). �My question has always been does the Arabic in that Surah support the translation of "some."� I understand. For that matter, I am still wondering about the above �curse,� or what some have called blood-libel from Matthew as well. �My expert in the Arabic language says, no it does not.� Are these gnats or camels? (in the language of Christian Arabs �) Waylakum, a�Salaam Serv Edited by Servetus |
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BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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George, The Jews were no single nation at that time. Throughout the history they had lived as tribes. Besides the twelve tribes living in Israel, guarding each other's flanks, there were many who had travelled far out. There were different views as there were too many Jewish rabbis, who were teaching the scripture according to their own wild interpretations, like Paul and his church did with the teachings of Jesus. Most of the Jews were run by Thalmudic teachers who were insisting on the importance of oral teachings. Over a period of 1,500 to 2000 years, many Jews living in different parts of the entire ME region were practising their own brand of the religion. Those living towards East in the Arabian Desert had their own beliefs and ways. This is confirmed by the huge amount of scripture that has already been thrown out under the Apocrypha by the modern Jewry just before Jesus was born. The bold statement from Qur'aan is made on the statement of Jews living amongst the Arabs and they must have said that. If they had not, Qur'aan would not have said that. Remember there was no single Jewish high command like the Pope or the Vatican for Jews. They were running crazy on their own. Qur'aan thus refers to the Jews who lived amongst pre-Islam Arabs and "Ezra was the Son of God" must have been their belief. It doesn't matter whether one Arab Jew said that or all the Arab Jews said that or some said that. While thousands of Jewish thinkers, self-proclaimed scholars and philosophers were busy in a concentrated area of Israel, the others were following theirs in far off lands. If you don't have that in the Bible, it does mean that is not possible. There are many statements and points in Qur'aan which are not in the Bible. Then there are many which are in the Bible and Qur'aan also but you miss them. For example incest. Incest was forbidden a few thousand years even before Judaism. It was forbidden in one of the Seven Great Commandments given to Noah. Yet Bible missed that! And the people were merrily producing people through Incest for multiplication. Bible is an evidence to that and you cannot deny that. Now Noah was in the region of modern day Iraq, possibly the area of Kurdistan. He never lived in Israel or Judea. Abraham started nearby, also from Iraq and yet he is shown as having married Sarah, his own father's daughter from another woman. I am surprised such good Commandments failed to reach Jerusalem in time.
Edited by bmzsp |
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AbRah2006
Guest Group Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 354 |
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Dear Serventus,
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God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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George
Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 406 |
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Let me help you understand Matthew 27:25 with some clips from an article explaining what was going on and what that verse means: Matthew 27:25 arguably stands out as one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted passages in all of Holy Scripture. Of the proposed interpretations for Matthew 27:25, the anti-Jewish interpretation is the oldest and most frequently cited in the history of the Church. This view says the Jewish people are permanently guilty and condemned in the eyes of God for their murder of Jesus Christ. As such, the cry of �His blood be upon us� means that the Jewish crowd in Jerusalem admitted full guilt for killing the Lord Jesus Christ and thereby invoked God�s curse upon themselves and their descendants until the end of time. This interpretation first surfaced in the writings of the early church fathers in the second century AD. It became universally accepted by the Middle Ages. The result, among other things, was the slanderous accusa tion that all Jews were �Christ killers� and �murderers of God.� Sadly, this is still a widespread belief in the Church today. The true meaning of Matthew 27:25, like any other Bible verse, is found within the context in which it is written. When looking at the context of Matthew�s Gospel (specifically, chapters 26 and 27) it is quite obvious that the entire Jewish race was not totally responsible for having Jesus crucified. Matthew 26 and 27 informs the reader that one individual and three distinct groups were responsible for the death of Jesus Christ. They are (1) Judas Iscariot, the disciple who betrayed Jesus into the hands of the Jewish authorities (Matt. 26:14�16; 47�50); (2) the Jewish leaders. This group was made up of Caiphas the High Priest, the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes. They united to form the Sanhedrin of Jerusalem which tried Jesus on the charge of blasphemy (Matt. 26:47, 57�67; 27:1�2, 5, 18, 25); (3) the Romans, comprised of the Procurator Pontius Pilate who handed Jesus over to be crucified and the Roman soldiers who actually nailed Jesus to the cross (Matt. 27:11�37); (4) the Jewish mob of Jerusalem. Though their role in Matthew 27 seems passive and subordinated under the control and influence of the chief priests and elders, their guilt in the death of Christ cannot be overlooked. They had the opportunity afforded them by Pilate to have Jesus released, but they chose instead a criminal named Barabbas (Matt 27:17, 20�26). From the context of Matthew 26�27 Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus applies only to Judas, the religious leaders of Jerusalem, and the mob of Jerusalem before the judgment seat of Pilate. It was the unbelieving Jews of Jerusalem and Israel, not all Jews in general, whom Matthew and the New Testament indict for their failure to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and their complicity in His death. In part 2 we will look in depth at how Matthew�s words themselves tell us exactly who �our children� are. The meaning of �children� in the cry of the crowd in Matthew 27:25 does not mean all the subsequent descendants of those Jews who rejected Christ in Matthew 26 and 27. The word in the Greek text of Matthew can also mean a child of parents. In the context of verse 25 it refers to the offspring of the unbelieving Jews of Jerusalem who shouted for Christ to be crucified. This at once limits the meaning to only one generation and corresponds with the judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70. To read the cry of Matthew 27:25 as an eternal curse on the Jewish people is therefore to press the language beyond its Biblical context. Jewish guilt for the death of Christ in Matthew rested upon a small number of the nation who were there, and to read into these words a curse on all Jews forever is ludicrous (after all, Matthew and his fellow apostles were Jews). Like everyone else in the present age of grace, Jews will not be judged corporately, but judged individually on the sole basis of their acceptance or rejection of Jesus as Messiah and Lord (John 3:36). The cry of Matthew 27:25 was not a bloodthirsty wish, curse, or prophecy, but rather a cultural idiom of the ancient Near East used to verbally express individual or group responsibility for a solemn action taken. The use and meaning of this expression goes back to the Old Testament (see Deut. 19:10; Josh. 2:19; 2 Sam. 3:28�29; I Kings 2:33; Jer. 26:15; Ezek. 18:13). Pilate�s unwillingness to condemn Jesus prompted the Jerusalem crowd to take responsibility for it themselves, hence the cry �His blood be upon us�.� The guilt for the murder of Christ belonged to these Jews alone who stood before Pilate demanding that Jesus be crucified. It was not passed on to all Jews born a fter them. If indeed Matthew 27:25 meant the Jews are in fact condemned as a race for killing Christ, should not the Italian descendants of the ancient Romans also be condemned for nailing Jesus to the cross? Those within the Church who have favored the anti-Jewish interpretation of Matthew 27:25 would do well to at least be consistent with their racist interpretation. The reason they are not is because they are exclusively biased against the Jewish people. I suggest that you read the whole article. It is not very long. http://www.levitt.com/essays/bloodlibel.html As I pointed out the Arabic does not allow us to read "some." The verse infers "all" Jews. Further than that, since Allah would have know how Matthew 27:25 had been used to persecute and/or accuse all Jews of Jesus' murder I would think that he would have made sure that it didn't happen again with a verse in the Qur'an. In other words, he would have identified the Jews as "x,y,z" Jews and not have left the impression that he condemned all Jews. As you can readily see from the article, all Jews were not condemned for the murder of Jesus, but only some Jews as identified in the article. Now could you tell me what your understanding is of the Jews calling Ezra the "son of God." Why was that expression so horrid to Allah that he put a curse on them? Peace |
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BMZ
Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1852 |
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George, the so-called curse did not start because of Ezra. The curses were there right from the beginning after Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. The Bible itself confirms that and you can even read the woes sent by Jesus. |
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