God in Evangelical Christianity

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   B95000:
You said:
>>>>With all due respect Israfil, you're being trite in your metaphor. 
Now, I say man, you're telling me there's logical inconsistency in saying God loves all of us and yet has set up a condition for salvation. But that's like saying the parent that loves their child must not ever have any conditions upon them. Of course they must and do and that is, in fact, part of their love for them! The child is free to love the parent back or not - with all the attendent consequences of that. It is the same for our Heavenly Father.<<<<
My apologies with the Metaphor but your approach on how to view God I disagree with. First and foremost perhaps when you say that God is our "Heavenly Father" perhaps you refer in the poetic sense that he is our Creator. However poetics are not we are all his creation and not his children for Allah bears nothing from him nor is there anything besides him.
Second, again as I mentioned before laws that are set in society are conditions of freedom until one transgress those laws and breaks them. Again if unconditional love is with God why does he favor one behavior over another? The parent that sets rules for his/her children in accordance to "good" prefers the attribute of good and sets laws in accordance to that, but those laws are a condition upon the pleasure/displeasure of the parent hence a conditon.
B you said:

>>>That's why it all comes back to true faith - God imputes faith as righteousness, as he did with Abraham.<<<<

Brother I agree, it comes back to the hanif Abraham who even turned away from his own blood to the faith of God. Which we Muslims follow we follow and worship the Lord of Abraham.
B you said:
"The Muslim of sincere faith in God (Allah) will be saved through Jesus' sacrifice, just like the Christian. It is my view that if a Muslim were to encounter Jesus the way many do or the way Jesus really is then they too would bow their knee and say as Thomas said, "My Lord and My God." But all these things are up to God..I'm basing my views on Romans 2 and 3 however."
This again is a logical fallacy. God is conditional based upon the theological concepts of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian teachings. However its important to note that Jews do not share in this view although there are some Jew who believe Jesus was a great Rabbi the majority do not believed he exist. Second, because of Al-Qur'an and its corrections on past doctrines its impossible for a Muslim to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus if the Qur'an states otherwise. But regardless if God overlooks good sincere monotheism for the belief in the sacrifice of Jesus then not only is God not ethical but again, conditional.
B you said:
>>>>God has already unconditionally loved his children. He doesn't stop loving His children, but neither does he stop the consequences for evil actions. Call that conditional if you want (especially if you believe in determinism theologically) but even so, it is God who decides when a person falls outside the purview of His love. So technically, since we're going there, God's love is great, the width, breadth, length and height, no one can know (as it says in one of the Epistles) but the point at which it intersects with justice or God's judgment it ceases to be absolutely unconditional (but that has more to do with the point of judgment) - let's put it this way - in this world the good gifts of God falls on the righteous and the unrighteous...God is loving us - in this life - unconditionally. But if we want to enter God's heaven, we'd best heed to the conditions for that.<<<<<
Again and again you keep maiking that same mistake brother as I mentioned before for you to say God loves me unconditional yet sets a religious condition upon me (when you mask as justice in your earlier remarks) that is conditional. You must also mention that God sets up moral and ethical laws because he favors the attributes of good rather bad. God also prefers the attributes of a monotheist and not an atheist.  Since I have to believe in the religious belief of Jesus' sacrifice then that is the religious condition God has set upon me to believe which makes God ultimately conditional.
In Islam God is universally conditional although he is always merciful the two are different and shouldn't be allocated to each other. God loves all humans in their nature but does not love all humans unconditonally in their nature. If so, then the nature of an evil man would be acceptable to God base don his unwavering love. Now extending this futher according to his moral laws if God loves the evil person unconditionally and this person takes another humans life in vain his actions wouldn't matter. As I mentioned before emotions sometimes superceeds rationality. Although I know God is both, God's preferences makes him conditional consequently.

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Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Post Options Post Reply Quote Israfil Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 14 August 2005 at 3:06pm
	B95000: You said: >>>>With all due respect Israfil, you're being trite in your metaphor. Now, I say man, you're telling me there's logical inconsistency in saying God loves all of us and yet has set up a condition for salvation. But that's like saying the parent that loves their child must not ever have any conditions upon them. Of course they must and do and that is, in fact, part of their love for them! The child is free to love the parent back or not - with all the attendent consequences of that. It is the same for our Heavenly Father.<<<< My apologies with the Metaphor but your approach on how to view God I disagree with. First and foremost perhaps when you say that God is our "Heavenly Father" perhaps you refer in the poetic sense that he is our Creator. However poetics are not we are all his creation and not his children for Allah bears nothing from him nor is there anything besides him. Second, again as I mentioned before laws that are set in society are conditions of freedom until one transgress those laws and breaks them. Again if unconditional love is with God why does he favor one behavior over another? The parent that sets rules for his/her children in accordance to "good" prefers the attribute of good and sets laws in accordance to that, but those laws are a condition upon the pleasure/displeasure of the parent hence a conditon. B you said: >>>That's why it all comes back to true faith - God imputes faith as righteousness, as he did with Abraham.<<<< Brother I agree, it comes back to the hanif Abraham who even turned away from his own blood to the faith of God. Which we Muslims follow we follow and worship the Lord of Abraham. B you said: "The Muslim of sincere faith in God (Allah) will be saved through Jesus' sacrifice, just like the Christian. It is my view that if a Muslim were to encounter Jesus the way many do or the way Jesus really is then they too would bow their knee and say as Thomas said, "My Lord and My God." But all these things are up to God..I'm basing my views on Romans 2 and 3 however." This again is a logical fallacy. God is conditional based upon the theological concepts of Christianity and the Judeo-Christian teachings. However its important to note that Jews do not share in this view although there are some Jew who believe Jesus was a great Rabbi the majority do not believed he exist. Second, because of Al-Qur'an and its corrections on past doctrines its impossible for a Muslim to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus if the Qur'an states otherwise. But regardless if God overlooks good sincere monotheism for the belief in the sacrifice of Jesus then not only is God not ethical but again, conditional. B you said: >>>>God has already unconditionally loved his children. He doesn't stop loving His children, but neither does he stop the consequences for evil actions. Call that conditional if you want (especially if you believe in determinism theologically) but even so, it is God who decides when a person falls outside the purview of His love. So technically, since we're going there, God's love is great, the width, breadth, length and height, no one can know (as it says in one of the Epistles) but the point at which it intersects with justice or God's judgment it ceases to be absolutely unconditional (but that has more to do with the point of judgment) - let's put it this way - in this world the good gifts of God falls on the righteous and the unrighteous...God is loving us - in this life - unconditionally. But if we want to enter God's heaven, we'd best heed to the conditions for that.<<<<< Again and again you keep maiking that same mistake brother as I mentioned before for you to say God loves me unconditional yet sets a religious condition upon me (when you mask as justice in your earlier remarks) that is conditional. You must also mention that God sets up moral and ethical laws because he favors the attributes of good rather bad. God also prefers the attributes of a monotheist and not an atheist. Since I have to believe in the religious belief of Jesus' sacrifice then that is the religious condition God has set upon me to believe which makes God ultimately conditional. In Islam God is universally conditional although he is always merciful the two are different and shouldn't be allocated to each other. God loves all humans in their nature but does not love all humans unconditonally in their nature. If so, then the nature of an evil man would be acceptable to God base don his unwavering love. Now extending this futher according to his moral laws if God loves the evil person unconditionally and this person takes another humans life in vain his actions wouldn't matter. As I mentioned before emotions sometimes superceeds rationality. Although I know God is both, God's preferences makes him conditional consequently.

thomas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 07 August 2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 112	Post Options Post Reply Quote thomas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 21 August 2005 at 1:22am
	Aren't most of you splitting hairs? Don't look at the leaves, but at the whole tree ! Look at the trunk and big branches of the Christianity tree and the Islam tree. Isn't it better to discuss the origins and authenticity of both books ? If the Koran is just correcting and rectifying what has been said in the Bible, then in this topic we have to try to have an answer on the question : "Has God in Evangelical Christianity" been rectified by the Qur'an? If yes, what should the corrected God's image then look like? On what verses in the Qur'an? If there is no basis whatever in the Qur'an then for a correction of God's image as depicted in the Bible, then we -- everybody -- should accept the image of God as described in the Bible. His lovingkindness, etc. completely, in its entirety, just as is said in the Bible. The God in Evangelical Christianity is the God of true Love as the Bible explaines -- except, perhaps, when the Qur'an has corrected. or even perhaps, denied it. And your debate whether God's love is unconditional or not, becomes more a 'technical' question, rather than a 'constitutional' one, because you have accepted the God of the Bible, and we have accepted the authenticity of both books. Thanks, Tom [I've touched upon this also in the topic "Quran II".]