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Jews and Christians and Allah

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amah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 9:50am
Alhamdulillah! Allah made the task easy for us, by "updating" texts, according to our needs.
Allah is Sufficient as a Walee (Protector) and Allah is Sufficient as a Naseer (Helper).
(Surah An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #45)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 12:05pm
Cyril - I am not a scholar of Islam, but some original doctrine that come to immediately mind are the rejection of riba and the complete ban on intoxicants. Also the existence of jinn (a third divine sentient creation) and many details regarding angels. 

Muhummad was certainly exposed to Ebionite (and therefore Jewish) and Nestorian Christian thought, but these do not detract from the originality of the presentation.

Islam shares with Ebionite Christianity the disavowal of Christ's divinity.  But as I took up Servie's suggestion of reading St. Iraneus, many Ebionite and Nestorian Christian beliefs are specifically denied by Islam in favor of beliefs in common with contemporary Christianity.

The Virgin birth, the abrogation of the original covenant & the presiding over the end days were not accepted doctrine by the Christians Muhummad was raised with.  He may have brought in Nazarene thought here, but his synthesis of disparate Christian belief systems is certainly original.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 1:32pm

Originally posted by AnnieTwo AnnieTwo wrote:

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

DavidC

Could you for example tell me what is original (I mean an original religious doctrine that cannot be found in other religions) in the Quran? You tell me most of it is original. Just give me a few examples.
One original thing is in my mind at the moment that is the doctrine of abrogation.


Oh abrogation is a very interesting subject.  Within less than 23 years Allah abrogated 500 sayings, according to some sources, less according to others.  This is practically unheard of in the Holy Bible.

Annie

Don't Christians believe the New Testament to almost completely abrogate the Old Testament? Even though Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cyril Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 2:53pm
DavidC

You said that most of the Quran is original so I thought I would get a long list a new things.

I was wondering what ribaa meant until I thought about usury. It is forbidden by the Quran and by the Bible (Leviticus 25:35-37), so nothing new.

I agree with you that the ban of alcohol is new. Does that ban concern all intoxicants?

The belief in Jinns existed in Arabic paganism.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AnnieTwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Mishmish Mishmish wrote:

Originally posted by AnnieTwo AnnieTwo wrote:

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

DavidC

Could you for example tell me what is original (I mean an original religious doctrine that cannot be found in other religions) in the Quran? You tell me most of it is original. Just give me a few examples.
One original thing is in my mind at the moment that is the doctrine of abrogation.


Oh abrogation is a very interesting subject.  Within less than 23 years Allah abrogated 500 sayings, according to some sources, less according to others.  This is practically unheard of in the Holy Bible.

Annie

Don't Christians believe the New Testament to almost completely abrogate the Old Testament? Even though Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.



No, Mishmish, I would not put it that way.  The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.  This came about by Messiah Jesus.  All of the prophets were looking forward to the Messiah and anticipated his coming.  Jesus said that Moses spoke about him.  This is in Deut. 18:18, a prophet like unto Moses.

Also you have to understand that this took a very long time.  OTOH the abgrogations in the Qur'an happened within the blink of an eye so to speak.  Twenty-three years or less. 

Annie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 3:56pm
Riba is any interest at all.  Not just excessive interst (usury).  Muslims are forbidden to have interest bearing savings accounts, for example.

Yes, all intoxicants are forbidden.

The sermon on the mount in Mattehw is the most relevant scripture regarding the Old Testament law.  Basically the Jews had reduced the practice of the law to mere superstition and rote; forgetting the role of intention and worshiping God while doing all the dogmatic behaviors correctly.  I can imagine an Imam preaching an almost identical message, and it certainly helps me to reread it frequently.

Later Paul's ministry to the Gentiles dispensed with the exclusiveness of Judiasm as evidenced by circumcision.  Joshua and his army had even circumcised themselves TWICE FCOL. 

It's all about following faith and the spirit of the law, and opening up religion to everyone.  It's not about making the OT irrelevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mishmish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2006 at 4:11pm

Originally posted by Cyril Cyril wrote:

DavidC

You said that most of the Quran is original so I thought I would get a long list a new things.

I was wondering what ribaa meant until I thought about usury. It is forbidden by the Quran and by the Bible (Leviticus 25:35-37), so nothing new.

I agree with you that the ban of alcohol is new. Does that ban concern all intoxicants?

The belief in Jinns existed in Arabic paganism.


Jinns existed before the revelations were sent to the Prophet Mohammed(PBUH). They are not pagan related, they are creatures created by Allah of fire and they also have free will.

Yes, the Bible forbids the usury as does the Quran. The Quran is very specific and forceful about this, and Muslims take this very seriously.

You say that Jesus was a Jew so it is only natural for him to use the Old Testament in his teaching. Yet according to the New Testament, and most of the Christians on this forum, Jesus' teaching changed the Laws of the Old Testament into a new covenant. Therefore, most of the books of the Old Testament are no longer relevant to Christians, but to Judaism only.

So, Jesus was born a Jew, but was never REALLY a Jew in his beliefs or his teachings.

We believe that the Quran corrects and completes the Message of God sent down to all of the Prophets and Messengers. There are bound to be similarities, as there is only One God.

The Quran established the prayers, the rights of women, (which were woefully missing before), division of inheritance, re-established the practice of worshipping God alone with no intermediary needed, it corrects the misconceptions held about earlier Prophets: The Prophet Lot committed incest, the Prophet Noah was a drunk, These were Prophets of God, they were the best of men. The Quran teaches Eve was NOT a sinful temptress who tricked Adam into sin, and that when both Adam and Eve sinned, they sought God's forgiveness and He gave it.  It teaches that man was created to be vicegerents of the earth, that our place here is not because of original sin, but rather what we were created to do. It teaches that God is the Most Merciful and Oft Forgiving.

As far as revering God, the Prophets, and the Messengers of God, the Quran far outshines Biblical texts.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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